Cadence Arita or Quad 12L?

I would prefer a Dynaudio Audience52 over both of them...even the pricing is in the same region. I would sincerely reccommend you look at them before your final shortlist.

Among the two listed above Arita Vs 12L, it would Aritas for me.

Audience 52 is a good speaker but for Jazz, classical, some people may prefer the aritas or even the quads. They will have to listen and decide. One issue with dynaudio is the ‘juice’ needed to power them. You are looking at something like a 150 watts/channel high quality/high current power amp/integrated here. Don’t you think this will push his budget ?

I like the Quad.

The Cadence has a Vifa tweeter that has a slight 'zing'
Great woofer & nice cabinet. Stand is too expensive.
QC [quality control] may be an issue with fit & finish on the Cadence. Also support; No dealer in Mumbai.

The Quads are well priced. Very well built & have a lovely fit & finish. Besides, Designer Audio's prices are really very very nice. Just do not buy teir DAC Cables to go with it.
I also like the Wharfdale Pacific Evolution Series II Speakers. Give them a listen.

Bhagwan

One issue with dynaudio is the ‘juice’ needed to power them. You are looking at something like a 150 watts/channel high quality/high current power amp/integrated here. Don’t you think this will push his budget ?

Hmmm...IMO the power requirement is more a function of the room size than the speaker's specifications. Yes the speaker has its own demands but the major variation in demand is more due to the room size than the characteristics of the speakers.
Audience 52 are definitely low efficiency speakers but for a average room size 15ft x 10ft (as in this case) it can happily be driven by anything above 75 watts per channel. Regarding the quality of amplification, yes it is required, and so it is for any good speaker (which is low in coloration). A good entry level amp is all that can be had in the given budget and thats good enough for either of the speakers in question.
Obviously better the amplification, better the sound.

Ofcourse the Dynas have the capabilities to fill bigger sized rooms and also they grow along with your electronics but thats another thing all together.

[quote="abhi.pani"][quote]Obviously better the amplification, better the sound.

Ofcourse the Dynas have the capabilities to fill bigger sized rooms and also they grow along with your electronics but thats another thing all together.[/quote]

Well put.

The Dynaudio only sound better with better electronics & cables.

They play OK with average electronics, but excel when partnered with premium electronics.

BHAGWAN

abhi.pani schrieb:

One issue with dynaudio is the ‘juice’ needed to power them. You are looking at something like a 150 watts/channel high quality/high current power amp/integrated here. Don’t you think this will push his budget ? Hmmm...IMO the power requirement is more a function of the room size than the speaker requirements. Yes the speaker has its own demands but the major variation in demand is more due to the room size than the characteristics of the speakers. Audience 52 are definitely low efficiency speakers but for a average room size 15ft x 10ft (as in this case) it can happily be driven by anything above 75 watts per channel. Regarding the quality of amplification, yes it is required, and so it is for any good speaker (which is low in coloration). A good entry level amp is all that can be had in the given budget and thats good enough for either of the speakers in question. Obviously better the amplification, better the sound. Ofcourse the Dynas have the capabilities to fill bigger sized rooms and also they grow along with your electronics but thats another thing all together.

Name an amp which will do justice to the aud 52 during peaks/crescendos with classical along his price range (below 30k) ?

Nothing below 30 K will do any justice.

Please do not start that NAD 230 BEEE thing once again here...... I request you all

That Speaker [52 SE] needs amplification in the 100 K region to begin showing what it is capable of.

Bhagwan

Lets stick to the point....
We are trying to see, what is the best possible sound solution for a budget of 80k (for speakers + amp) right...

Now we have three speakers...(actually two but we have added one to make this discussion more interesting )

For something around 30k...we are trying to find a good amp..which is tonally balanced, has decent power reserve and matching the speakers (i.e sounding good when paired together).

At this point of time lets not bring in how BETTER Dynas can sound with better electronics...because thats not a point of concern here. Infact thats an advantage by most respects.

Now, me being a user of Dynas in a average living room, can comfortably say, that they are not all that power hungry in average sized living rooms, they require it only when you put them in larger or acoustically damped kind of rooms.
What they need is clean power upto 50 watts and a well balanced tonality.

So lets see if we can do it fairly well for this kind of budget.

Agree with you Bhagwan. That is why I asked. There are a lot of people who make the mistake of buying dynaudio speakers and pairing them with budget amps. Buying dynaudio makes the whole package very expensive. Usually those bookshelf speakers need amps costing more than double or even triple of their price to sound good.
Abhi has a plinius 8200 so he is happy..

square_wave schrieb:

Usually those bookshelf speakers need amps costing more than double or even triple of their price to sound good.

Sound good or sound its best ???

There is a lot of difference between these two statements.
From what you have written, one would tend to think that Dynas can only sound decent with high-priced amps which is wrong IMO. They can sound decent even with entry-mid priced amps given you select the amp carefully.

It is something like you buy a sportscar but you dont have empty roads to use its potential output but still they do better than average sedans in the city...

Abhi has a plinius 8200 so he is happy..

As I said, its a differnt perspective altogether to see how best they can perform given better electronics and stuffs like that. But IMO they can still perform decent with good budget electronics...provided you are choosy. Its entirely my opinion, one actually needs to go to the field and do the exercise.

To give an example...
other day sub_boss brought over his Sonodyne Uranus-2 amp to my place...just to check out the performance (some fun actually). I could immediately findl out 100 faults in the sound (may be thats what a studio monitor is supposed to reveal) but the overall sound was pretty amazing. Yes we didnt hear any jazz on them but whatever we heard actually left us a bit surprised. The Sonodynes are actually a very cheap amplifier compared to what we are discussing here but still the combo sounded kind of pleasing. I know one can find out 100 faults in the sound so they are not a combo for critical/serious listening but I still have a feeling, that for 35k range some decent amplification is possible.

it seems the party which is not filed as nominee is winning the election...

btw could anyone please tell me some medium range speaker brands which is not made in china?

btw could anyone please tell me some medium range speaker brands which is not made in china?

Thank God there are no chinese people in our English forum...

Actually I'm not biased to non-chinese made products but from many threads in this forum I feel that its better to go for a brand which is not made in china....even its 20k or 30k they are not mere papers but money....

The other day, Jeeves on the forum was saying good things about a bookshelf speaker by EPOS. He mentioned it was fantastic value for around 30-35k or something. His point of reference is the proac response 1SE. If he liked the speaker, it must be good.

Abhi, I was not talking about the issue of good or bad quality sound with regards to amplifier power and quality. I was talking about the inability of lower/medium power amps to produce proper dynamics without clipping with inefficient speakers like dynaudios irrespective of the quality of the amp. They will produce sound with any amp. Dynaudios need high powered amps to come alive. Try playing some classical with lot of dynamics at high volumes and you will see. Most good classical recordings have very low recording level to ensure good dynamics. You really have to pump up the volume to hear the faint low level details, suddenly you have the crescendo hitting you and most budget amps with just produce clipped sound. It will sound “loud” instead of “big” when you increase the volume. That is when you describe the amp being “shouty” instead of being “composed”. Ask any hardcore classical listener and he will tell you the travails of matching inefficient speakers with amps. The original poster’s friend listens to classical, so he needs to be extra careful when he picks up speakers.

Aritas.

They will produce sound with any amp. Dynaudios need high powered amps to come alive. Try playing some classical with lot of dynamics at high volumes and you will see. Most good classical recordings have very low recording level to ensure good dynamics. You really have to pump up the volume to hear the faint low level details, suddenly you have the crescendo hitting you and most budget amps with just produce clipped sound. It will sound “loud” instead of “big” when you increase the volume. That is when you describe the amp being “shouty” instead of being “composed”.

Possible...
From what I have heard Dynas dont dip in impedance as much. Infact some say that they are preferred partners for tube amps...
The reason what most people give is Dynas impedance curve doesnt vary much so it is an easier load on the amp than many others with similar specs.
Classical music is an area which I am yet to be initiated so I would rather not comment on its requirement from the amp and speakers.

vpriyan schrieb:

btw could anyone please tell me some medium range speaker brands which is not made in china?

if it is good sound you desire this approach is not going to get you anywhere.

but if you do have a mindblock on MIC, try klipsch ...but because they have to travel halfway across the globe are overpriced here.

only option is cadence.

square_wave schrieb:

Usually those bookshelf speakers need amps costing more than double or even triple of their price to sound good.

care to elaborate ???

a NAD 350 runs them pretty fine from what I have heard..but they do have the capacity to improve the sound with the better amp but saying that they sound awful with a budget amp is very curious

square_wave schrieb:

Name an amp which will do justice to the aud 52 during peaks/crescendos with classical along his price range (below 30k) ?

back in 2003 when was visiting BOM, I visited Soundsmith when they were in their Marine Lines office above Qatar Airways. That fellow Vijay (Sindhi last name) was there. He had the Dynaudio Audience 52 driven by a Cayin 30W/ch or 50W/ch power amp. There was a AV Max reviewer Mehul who had written up a long review of this combination sometime in Oct or Nov or Dec 2003. This fellow Mehul was totally ga-ga over the combination. I heard it & could easily see why Mehul was head-over-heels over this combination. I liked it very, very much myself.
If my memory serves me correctly, the CDP was a Rega Planet.
So, this is 1 amp that would make the Audience 52 sound superb. Soundsmith even sold the Dynaudio matching stands.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

I like the Quad. I also like the Wharfdale Pacific Evolution Series II Speakers. Give them a listen. Bhagwan

I will go with Bhagwan69 on this one - give the Wharfedale book shelf speakers a serious listen. I'm talking of the Wharfdale 8 & the latest 9 series. IMHO, they will outdo the other 2 speakers.

Further, if you have some more money to spend & the means of importing or wangling into the country, drop the Dynaudio Audience 52 like a hot potato & get the Dynaudio BM-6A active pro/studio monitor. This BM model is made like the Audience series but is made for the pro/studio world. Hence, it's WAF is very low BUT the performance is far superior to the Audience 52. FWIW.

bombaywalla,

the 12L qlso has an active version which is supposed to be really good.

manek.

bombaywalla schrieb:

bhagwan69 schrieb: I like the Quad. I also like the Wharfdale Pacific Evolution Series II Speakers. Give them a listen. Bhagwan Further, if you have some more money to spend & the means of importing or wangling into the country, drop the Dynaudio Audience 52 like a hot potato & get the Dynaudio BM-6A active pro/studio monitor. This BM model is made like the Audience series but is made for the pro/studio world. Hence, it's WAF is very low BUT the performance is far superior to the Audience 52. FWIW.

I think i know someone on the forum who is doing exactly this though it is the BM6 the passive monitor..any wild guesses

Arj schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: Usually those bookshelf speakers need amps costing more than double or even triple of their price to sound good. care to elaborate ??? a NAD 350 runs them pretty fine from what I have heard..but they do have the capacity to improve the sound with the better amp but saying that they sound awful with a budget amp is very curious

I currently own the NAD C350 and have used an Audience 42 at my home for a week. They don’t sound awful. Never in any of my posts have I said the speakers will sound awful with a budget amp. Problem is lack of ”headroom” when playing recordings with lower recording levels. Most budget amps will struggle in this regard with any dynaudio speaker.
I have not tried any tube amp, so no idea about the same.

square_wave schrieb:

I currently own the NAD C350 and have used an Audience 42 at my home for a week. They don’t sound awful. Never in any of my posts have I said the speakers will sound awful with a budget amp. Problem is lack of ”headroom” when playing recordings with lower recording levels. Most budget amps will struggle in this regard with any dynaudio speaker. I have not tried any tube amp, so no idea about the same.

I agree on the awful part but still do not get your correlation to sound and price of the amp for a bookshelf!!!! nad 15O has enough headroom for the dyns which regardless to perception is not really a difficult load

if you meant headroom instead of price then its a different story and although i may not personally agree with that, it is a well subscribed to theory

Dynaudioacoustics is available in mumbai.

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Arj schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: I currently own the NAD C350 and have used an Audience 42 at my home for a week. They don’t sound awful. Never in any of my posts have I said the speakers will sound awful with a budget amp. Problem is lack of ”headroom” when playing recordings with lower recording levels. Most budget amps will struggle in this regard with any dynaudio speaker. I have not tried any tube amp, so no idea about the same. I agree on the awful part but still do not get your correlation to sound and price of the amp for a bookshelf!!!! nad 15O has enough headroom for the dyns which regardless to perception is not really a difficult load if you meant headroom instead of price then its a different story and although i may not personally agree with that, it is a well subscribed to theory

I was talking about “headroom” only. If he chooses an “easier to drive” speaker, he will have more than enough budget amps to choose from without compromising on the “headroom”. If somebody is not a “dynaudio fanatic”, this is a wiser option.

bombaywalla schrieb:

bhagwan69 schrieb: I like the Quad. I also like the Wharfdale Pacific Evolution Series II Speakers. Give them a listen. Bhagwan I will go with Bhagwan69 on this one - give the Wharfedale book shelf speakers a serious listen. I'm talking of the Wharfdale 8 & the latest 9 series. IMHO, they will outdo the other 2 speakers. Further, if you have some more money to spend & the means of importing or wangling into the country, drop the Dynaudio Audience 52 like a hot potato & get the Dynaudio BM-6A active pro/studio monitor. This BM model is made like the Audience series but is made for the pro/studio world. Hence, it's WAF is very low BUT the performance is far superior to the Audience 52. FWIW.

This opens a whole new can of worms.

Active speakers are ALWAYS a better & cheaper solution.
If you are looking at a budget of under 100K Rs.
The Active Speakers from Dynaudio is available in India [officially].
I had a chance to listen to the Genelec's last week end 8004 model. It is a brilliant speaker. List is 80 K.

I much prefer an active speaker under 100 K that will fit & work rather well in any small to medium sized Indian room.

Dynaudio / Genelec / Tannoy / Adam are options that are available in India & are rather well prices.
There is a full thriving grey market for these products too. for the price consious i.e. No Installation & No warranty & back up though....

Bhagwan

Dynaudio active speakers? What's the model name? I couldn't find it in the website.

Is it possible to use a CD player (with volume control) directly connected to dynadio active speaker?

^^ dynaudioacoustics.com

The BM-5A is available for around 50K.

vpriyan schrieb:

Dynaudio active speakers? What's the model name? I couldn't find it in the website. Is it possible to use a CD player (with volume control) directly connected to dynadio active speaker?

theoretically possible yes. but you are opening another can of worms here. A CDP with a good volume copntrol option which does not compromise on resolution and SQ comes at a price which will more than offset the advantages you gain using a active setup.

But if budget is not a constraint then something like a Wadia/Cary/audio aero/Resolution Opus would make a wonderful source + volume control.

these come in the 4000 USD + range new and perhaps half the price used.

but you could have an inexpensive volume pot with input output made by any DIY guy or make one yourself since there are lots of designs and schematics available.

at one time i was very seriously thinking of moving to a Cary CDP + paradigm active 40s but the seller backed out in the last minute. the bass and control at the mids were quite unbelievable.

I would not take the Quad actives so seriously as there have been "murmurs" of the amp module just being an add on rather than being designs but I am not sure.

the dynaudio BMP series I have only heard of but not really heard one but all have been glowing remarks and many of them became converts due to it.


If i did not love my amp so much i would definitely have been active on that..but the dream of getting an active Paradigm 40 still remains !

vpriyan schrieb:

Dynaudio active speakers? What's the model name? I couldn't find it in the website. Is it possible to use a CD player (with volume control) directly connected to dynadio active speaker?

http://www.genelec.com/products/8040a/8040a.php
This is a speaker to consider.

http://www.genelec.com/products/8050a/8050a.php
This is its bigger brother.

The Dynaudio's are nice too.
But, buy them in Grey - Mr. Michael - supplier.
They are much much cheaper that way.

Bhagwan

Arj schrieb:

vpriyan schrieb: speaker? theoretically possible yes. but you are opening another can of worms here. A CDP with a good volume copntrol option which does not compromise on resolution and SQ comes at a price which will more than offset the advantages you gain using a active setup. If i did not love my amp so much i would definitely have been active on that..but the dream of getting an active Paradigm 40 still remains !

You are right, very very difficult to get a 'good cd player' that has a 'respectable' volume control built in it. It is too expensive & hence defeats the purpose - making the set up cheap.
The solution I feel is to play it through a computer. Buy an expensive sound card - Rs. 10 K [M-Audio] & drive the active monitors through that.

The other main aspect is that Active Monitors out perform low fi & mid fi very easily. But they are not able to come close to hi fi. They may have the high level resolution, but cannot do the other things well. Off on tone, image desnity, seperation, layering, emotional content etc. They are very very 'dry' & uninvolving.

So they are good, to a point, but not beyond.

BHAGWAN

vpriyan schrieb:

Dynaudio active speakers? What's the model name? I couldn't find it in the website. Is it possible to use a CD player (with volume control) directly connected to dynadio active speaker?

This is available in India.
I like them a lot.
Worth taking a look at :-

http://www.adam-audio.com/studio/

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BHAGWAN

The solution I feel is to play it through a computer. Buy an expensive sound card - Rs. 10 K [M-Audio] & drive the active monitors through that

I have a m-audio for sale

Another aspect to keep in mind with active monitors is like a laptop.... they cannot be upgraded.

You will have to find a buyer ( relatively more difficult ? ) when the upgrade bug bites you, and then have to start out fresh with new speakers and amplifier, wityhout the option to retain either the speakers or amp, if you like some particular characteristics.

On the flip side, active monitors offer TREMENDOUS Value for money. The Tannoy active monitors that Bhagwan has for sale have a built in discrete component MOSFET Amps ( Bi amped - or is it Tri amped ? ) delivering Several Hundred watts of power RMS per channel. That alone could represent good value, with the speakers thrown in free !

Even the Christmas tree shapped B&O active digital speakers have a Built in DAC, remote control and I think 3000 Watts of amplification PER Channel.

All you need is an external CD player ( even without a volume control, since the speakers will accept a direct digital input for the CD Player.... a single wire.. )

The speaker equalises itself for the room, ANYWHERE it is placed in any room, even off centre or totally skew compared to the listning position..... a wife's DELIGHT !

Amp_Nut schrieb:

a wife's DELIGHT ! :D

and a true blue audiophiles nightmare come true !!

first them take away individual compoents and and finally the placement ..what will I do will all my ICS and the info on placement and room treatment gained over days of puring over material in the internet

This discussion is getting really ineresting now...more interesting than vpriyan would have wanted...

Let me make it more interesting...Try the Epos M5 for 26k and worth every penny.

Here is a stereophile review of the same.
http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/405epos/

Whoooo,what a plethora of advice,you must be really confused!
Keep it simple & musical-the world is moving towards valves,
get Viren's Integrated valve amp+ harmony One speakers;
HiFi sound!
Whats the point of landing up with fancy computer speakers?
Kamal

Also agree with Kamal. Viren's system is an underated way of getting into hi-fi sound at an affordable price.

Jeeves schrieb:

Also agree with Kamal. Viren's system is an underated way of getting into hi-fi sound at an affordable price.

And it is also not made in China..

bhagwan69 schrieb:

The other main aspect is that Active Monitors out perform low fi & mid fi very easily. But they are not able to come close to hi fi. They may have the high level resolution, but cannot do the other things well. Off on tone, image desnity, seperation, layering, emotional content etc. They are very very 'dry' & uninvolving. So they are good, to a point, but not beyond. BHAGWAN

agree with Bhagwan69 on these aspects. The active monitors were made for the pro/studio market which has a quite different application vs. home audio. Hence the "dry" & "uninvolving" sound.
IMHO, the Tannoy & Dynaudio actives are less "dry" & less "uninvolving" than the Genelec. That was 1 reason I did not suggest the Genelec.
2ndly, you could use tone controls (horror! ) like a tube amp & somewhat mitigate that issue.

Jeeves schrieb:

Try the Epos M5 for 26k and worth every penny.

I also like this piece of advice. I have heard the smaller book-shelf speakers. Very good sound (esp. since it has a metal tweeter. I'm not a metal tweeter fan anymore. So this praise is quite complimentary from my side).