CD players reviewed

i stopped reading at "IMPORTANT ADVICE: Never turn off any* digital equipment. It usually takes around 2 days of playing for it to "break in" and sound optimum. Once turned off, you have to go through the entire cycle all over again. Accordingly, do not judge digital equipment unless it has been on and operating for at least 48 hours. This is true for even "budget" players."

Is this a Teac Esoteric 'sponsored' site ?
Where are the Accuphase ?
Meridian ?
dCS ?
EMM Labs ?
Playback Design ?

The list is rather long...

I think he has written about one Accuphase player the DP-75 and compared it to AMR...he did not like both .

Savyasaachi schrieb:

i stopped reading at "IMPORTANT ADVICE: Never turn off any* digital equipment. It usually takes around 2 days of playing for it to "break in" and sound optimum. Once turned off, you have to go through the entire cycle all over again. Accordingly, do not judge digital equipment unless it has been on and operating for at least 48 hours. This is true for even "budget" players." :.

Saavya, even tho' you tend not to believe this, I have personally found this to be very true. In fact, I would like to say that you need to keep the CD player on continuously for 72 hrs before you do any critical listening. So, these days my CD player is on 24/7 - it has a timer inside that kicks in if the player is not used for a certain length of time & the standby routine shuts down the laser & Transport power supplies but keeps the other electronics on in standby mode.
When I turn the CD off for several days & put it back on I can hear the non-optimal sound.
So, I agree with that author on this account.

I personally never switched off my pre amplifier in its entire life cycle - except to change power cords.
My DAC's were never switched off.
Even the CD Players were never switched off, just put into stand by when they were not in use. My master clock is never switched off - that needs to be on 27 X 7 for temperature compensation.

Okay..am a little intrigued. Going to see if this makes a difference. Am going to leave the DAC on for tonight. Its been on for the last 16 hours, so quite a ways to go.

bombaywalla schrieb:

Savyasaachi schrieb: i stopped reading at "IMPORTANT ADVICE: Never turn off any* digital equipment. It usually takes around 2 days of playing for it to "break in" and sound optimum. Once turned off, you have to go through the entire cycle all over again. Accordingly, do not judge digital equipment unless it has been on and operating for at least 48 hours. This is true for even "budget" players." :. Saavya, even tho' you tend not to believe this, I have personally found this to be very true. In fact, I would like to say that you need to keep the CD player on continuously for 72 hrs before you do any critical listening. So, these days my CD player is on 24/7 - it has a timer inside that kicks in if the player is not used for a certain length of time & the standby routine shuts down the laser & Transport power supplies but keeps the other electronics on in standby mode. When I turn the CD off for several days & put it back on I can hear the non-optimal sound. So, I agree with that author on this account.

I would say "it depends". I remember my former SS equipment from Einstein just did not change it's performance after approx. one hour of warm up. I tried many times keeping the system switched on for a day, for a week and once even for the entire holidays which I had spent in Germany. I just could not make out any difference.
So I would say that everybody should try out with the own system if there is an improvement when the system is switched on for hours, days, weeks and even months. And then decide if the improvement is worth an earlier deterioration of components.

Regards,
Jochen

Oh yes, I forgot to ask...what is the significance of the 48 hour period? Why so long?
What is the reasoning?

Savyasaachi schrieb:

Oh yes, I forgot to ask...what is the significance of the 48 hour period? Why so long? What is the reasoning?

you need time to let the electronic components & chassis to come to thermal equilibrium. At that time the bias currents & voltages stabilize. At that time you'll also find that the chassis is an even temperature. For front-end components it takes quite long because they draw puny amounts of current anyway so that drags out the time.
You need atleast 16-24 hrs. 48 is even better i.e. quite sure that things have stabilized.
This is also the reason that most good electronics manuf put ready-to-ship components into their test lab for a 48 hr burn-in. They want to get an idea of the long-term stability of the components thru this test - check if anything gets overly hot or if a bias current/voltage is not within expected range, etc.

Sir,

Just try it;
No down side - do you have a pre too ?
If so - keep thn on too.

Basically all front end components can and should be kept 'on' always.
I do that.

Do it & listen to your set up. Same songs in the same order & write notes - you will find out if it is 'better' or 'snake oil' !
All the best - please do post results.

I am only worried about the life of the component. Not all CDPs have a standby mode so they are kind of active all the time except that the motor is not rotating .
And how do you protect them against power cuts ? What is the level of sophistication of protection equipment required to make absolutely sure that there can be no surge passing through it when power comes back after a power cut ? Something like a Purepower ...not everybody has it .

abhi.pani schrieb:

I am only worried about the life of the component. Not all CDPs have a standby mode so they are kind of active all the time except that the motor is not rotating . And how do you protect them against power cuts ? What is the level of sophistication of protection equipment required to make absolutely sure that there can be no surge passing through it when power comes back after a power cut ? Something like a Purepower ...not everybody has it .

Abhi,
you raise some very good questions esp. for India where the AC power quality really stinks (sorry!). Yes, you would need a PurePower or an equivalent with battery backup (I believe that Siva has a non PurePower battery backup system) to allow you to keep the CDP on all the time. Otherwise, you are bound to fry the CDP sooner than later.

And how many days will the battery last if the protection unit is on 24/7 ? Just a query.

Well, I've had my DAC on for 2 days now and I honestly don't hear any difference compared to when I have it warmed up after an hour.
And I don't fancy the idea of the life expectancy of the components being shortened by keeping the front end on for such extended periods.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

Well, I've had my DAC on for 2 days now and I honestly don't hear any difference compared to when I have it warmed up after an hour. And I don't fancy the idea of the life expectancy of the components being shortened by keeping the front end on for such extended periods.

OK.
atleast you tried this technique & ascertained that it was of no benefit to you.

abhi.pani schrieb:

And how many days will the battery last if the protection unit is on 24/7 ? Just a query.

depends on newness of battery & load current.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

Well, I've had my DAC on for 2 days now and I honestly don't hear any difference compared to when I have it warmed up after an hour. And I don't fancy the idea of the life expectancy of the components being shortened by keeping the front end on for such extended periods.

perfect - so be it;
in your case, 'switching off' does not make a diff. superb, you are covered. put it on - listen - put it off & move on...
Great !
Enjoy your music !

I use a PP 2000 and so keep all my front end 'on' all the time. Besides the Master Clock needs to be 'stabilised' & 'temperature compensated' so needs to be 'on' 24X7.
Only my power amps [tube] get switched off - non PP [run of the wall socket] & they get really hot - 8 tubes [845] cannot be left on all the time...the room gets really very very hot & listening can get to become a task with the current heat wave in Mumbai !

Maybe someone can help me out with an answer to my question :


Why is it that the designer not take this into consideration and
make sure the equipment buit is guaranteed to reach the right thermal point
in a span of 30 mins and then sustain it so that people don't have to keep stuff on 24x7 especially when energy sources are running low.

Secondly, bombaywalla says its particularly meant for front ends due to their low current draw but shouldn't there be a way roound that too ?


Manek

Manek schrieb:

Why is it that the designer not take this into consideration and make sure the equipment buit is guaranteed to reach the right thermal point in a span of 30 mins and then sustain it so that people don't have to keep stuff on 24x7 especially when energy sources are running low. Manek

Every Designer [except the ones that are from the 'savy' camp] knows that the 'problem' exists; however maybe they do not know how to fix it !! Maybe Siva can come in here and suggest if some form of 'battery' back up [built internally] installed [inside] the component can ensure it is 'ready for use' all the time....

It is like power amps - they work best after 30 to 45 mins of start up;


We have to wait for them to reach 'optimum' temperature before they start to sound 'correct' !

All electronic component need a warm-up period (as well as a break-in period). No doubt on that. I assume we are not debating that.

To keep a player on, you can buy one of the batteries and domestic inverter. But after the inverter, you will defintely have to use a power regenerator.

Domestic UPS & Battery -> Power Regenerator -> Hi-Fi

I do not think there is an alternative solution, if you want your setup to be always on. This would be the price u need to pay...unfortunately . Folks in Mumbai, i suppose do not experience as much power cuts, as we do in BLR.

I cannot keep mine permanently on, because my battery back-up lasts only for 15 min ..or so. This was a special battery for APC, that costed 11k for 15 min

Regards
Siva.

30 minutes and a bit more is definately acceptable in my books.

Its only the thought of either playing the equipment or keeping it on for a long time for it to sound its best, is what I have a problem with.


There will be some users who may not want to wait those 30 to 45 mins for warmup but for those who do, why waste power ?


Manek

15 min on my APC Battery, includes the power hungry 845 monoblocks (the 2KVA UPS runs @ almost 70% capacity...when my system is playing).

For regular solid-state amp & CD player, i think battery should last for 30 minutes easily (The UPS will run @ less than 25-40% capacity)

Regards
Siva.

Manek schrieb:

Maybe someone can help me out with an answer to my question : Why is it that the designer not take this into consideration and make sure the equipment built is guaranteed to reach the right thermal point

Good question Manek. My transport has the option of Standby which keeps the motors etc off with just enough to keep the components thermally "optimised" at very low power consumption . as per the designer, he told me to keep it permanently on standby unless going away for long periods and that it takes it 30 mins to get to 90% of the sound and the rest in maybe 2-3 hours.
Wish My DAC too had it too.

Tubes and Class A amps though are much more difficult to do that..but from what i have read it is the Source which benefits the most from it.

Manek schrieb:

Maybe someone can help me out with an answer to my question : Why is it that the designer not take this into consideration and make sure the equipment buit is guaranteed to reach the right thermal point in a span of 30 mins

Manek,
you are dealing with physics here so it is not in the control of the designer of the particular front-end component to ensure that the component will stabilize in 30 minutes, etc.
usually front-end components run low(er) current 'cuz they are dealing w/ smaller signals (the o/p stage of a CDP does run a higher current to generate the final 2Vp-p output). So, smaller currents means longer time to reach thermal equilibrium. Also, look at the huge chunks of metal in the modern CD players. it's not thin metal; most of the time it's quarter inch aluminium. How much time does it take for so much metal to heat up evenly such that each point on the chassis is the same temp? It can be calculated, right? you know the surface area & the rate of temp increase due to current flow in the electronics & you get a number. It won't be 30 minutes!
One way around this would be to run a higher current @ startup. ANother might be to use less metal - use wood, for example. Still another might be to use patra metal - less metal volume to heat up evenly.
And, as Arj, wrote, the designer of the front-end component can incorporate a standby mode. So, if you are able to provide a stabilized AC power source, you can trickle drain the AC power battery while keeping your source on. The AC power battery can be recharged as long as there's AC power coming from the mains.

One reason that amplifiers sound better after only 30-45 minutes is that they run huge amounts of current (in comparison to source components) & the large current causes much quicker heating & thermal equilibrium in the electronics & in the metal chassis. Again, a direct function of the amount of current flow.

Manek schrieb:

and then sustain it so that people don't have to keep stuff on 24x7 especially when energy sources are running low. Manek

sustaining is not an issue once the part is on & playing program material. that happens naturally.

Manek schrieb:

Secondly, bombaywalla says its particularly meant for front ends due to their low current draw but shouldn't there be a way roound that too ? Manek

I wrote this because the source is the most important in the chain (using the criteria that if you lose the signal integrity at the front-end, you simply cannot retreive it at the back-end) & the source components usually deal with smaller signal amplitudes.
Keeping the pre & Power on all the time does have the same benefits (from my personal experience). Many people do not keep the pre & power on (& I know an equal number of people who keep their s.s. pre & power on all the time) but they can overcome the initial shortfall of sonics by not doing critical listening for the 1st 30-45 min as the higher currents in the pre & power stabilize the circuits & chassis in a much shorter time.

I do agree on the initial warm up time needed for components. I don't listen to my system for at least 30 mins after i turn it on. The difference from turn on to after 30-40 mins is like night and day. Felt like I was listening to a completely different system altogether.

I would like to read up on more tests if possible conducted to validate the 48 hour turn on theory though. I really don't feel electronic components need that long to find equilibrium in their operating condition.