Compressed dynamics distressing me

Hi Neutral, i have faced the same issue, no matter wht people say, u cant listen "true" sound all the time, you need to get th juice outta ur system. i too own a pulz and have overcome this issue by having a cd player with eq settings and pre-processed effects. this help push thwe frequencies a lot and gives you the "punch in the mids" to a great extent. it also depends on the speakers that you maybe runnin it thru. wht speakers are you currently using?

Hi Neckie,

Am using Pulz Status 203 bookshelfs: D'Appolito configured with two 5" drivers sandwitching a 1" tweeter. According to Pulz, they are perfectly matched to the 60W/ ch RS-250 power amp. So compatibility shouldn't be the issue.

I experienced tremendous dynamics when I heard a Denon CD player + Onkyo amplifer + Mission m74i speakers. That motivated me to write this post. I wanted to know whether low dynamics is a problem. Or whether I should just accept it as part of the personality of my system (laid-back).

You can'nt get the dynamics from a pulz set up in the same manner what you heard on Onkyo and Mission. In Audio You generally get more if you pay more.
You may have to switch to amp like Rotel Nad etc and good speaker as well.

Status 203 are gme of a speakers, i loved em too. but i felt it lacked the bass, it's very very good for jazz, please do try some compilations on one if you are not familiar with jazz stuff. for starters nenne freelon wud be nice. or u may try out the new chivas reagl compilation!! it's for 125inr at planet M.

Yeah the problem would be from your pc since the source is not upto the mark as well as your amplifier I recommend use atleast NAD or ROTEL for excellent dynamics But like You have said.. these are just 5 inch drivers so not to expect too much from the speakers..

If you had PMC or any other stuff like proac or dyns then there you will find lot of dynamism in the speakers..

what ever you say..if you want to check the diff go for the CREATIVE EMU card about 5k it will give professional output..

probably you will be amazed by the crispness of the treble and as well as the dynamics tat you have said..

what is the cost of your speakers?

In audio, nothing is perfect. All systems are voiced to a certain sound. If you are not happy with your setup, you might need to change it. But before you do it, try a decent cd player like a Nad or Cambridge audio with a decent interconnect. Make sure all your interconnects and speaker cables are of decent quality, and then experiment with the speaker placement. If it still sounds muffled, then you need to look at different speakers. Look out for speakers that satisfy you. Trust your ears only.

well there is little bit problem with the pc sounds like...
If you have a good graphics processor then...(onboard or card)
there will be heavy electro magnetic field inside the cabinet and the sound section will obsorb all these stuff and get interfered with the signals and this will ampliflied and then comes to speakers... so you will not get nice sound with PCs


Anyway you can try the creative EMU if you really want to stuck up with the pc then go for the card...

Or else go for the good DVD audio player rather than cd player.. they DVD audio players have good DACs..

Can you suggest some good DVD audio player?

Hi Folks,

As I said the Pulz setup is sweet-sounding and purchased really recently. So no question of going in for a new system.

Could one of you please attach a computer to your preamp and check if the dynamic range becomes constricted on this source. I don't have a CD or DVD player. Before I spend 15,000 on one, I would really appreciate if someone could actually test and tell me what difference it will make compared to a computer soundcard.

Neutral,

a dedicated cd or a dvd player would make a difference. It depends on how much your rest of the system and cables are able to resolve and that hether the difference is worth it to you in terms of money.

Why dont you if possible borrow a CDP?DVD player from a friend and plug it in and find out ?

The dealer who sold you the system will definately be able to help.

BTW a decent entry level DVD player will cost you 4k-9k. Pioneer or sony could be your options.

Manek.

Hi Neutral,

I doubt if it would really serve any purpose, because our setups would be different from the one you have. I have tried connecting my PC to my pre amp on a couple of occasions in the past, but the output sounded so tinny I couldn’t wait to connect the CDP back.

Good sound depends upon many factors – good recordings, good equipment, good speaker placement, good room treatment. Take away one and you find the sound collapsing.

I would whole-heartedly agree with Manek however, I am sure you would find a decent CDP making a good deal of a difference.

Thanks Manek and Big-Ears,

Actually I don't find computer as a source tinny. It's quite decent sounding and ghazals and Dido come out quite nice really. But then it's not optimal. I'll have to ask the dealer for another demo.

None of my friends have audiophile players and I know through experience that a crappy Samsung DVD player would most likely sound worse than my computer as a source.

Manek, is it possible that Pulz actually limited the dynamic range on purpose, to voice it for a particular type of music?

Sure Neutral, maybe your sound card is a lot better than the stock one I had when I last tried this out a couple of years ago.

The quality of the cdp/amp will also make a big difference. For eg, my stereo setup may not be last word in hifi, but I do like the combination of soundstaging, bass and headroom it produces, especially for the money I paid for it. Since my speakers also double as fronts for my HT, sometimes I play CDs through my DVD player and Denon AVR connected to them. I must say I find a world of a difference in the output. The DVD/AVR combination is way inferior.

I am not familiar with Pulz amps, hence cannot say anything about them.

Cheers

Neutral,

Most audio system makers want to make amps as dynamic, as neutral, as smooth and realistic sounding as possible within his budgeted manufacturing costs.

Ofcourse some have a house sound.

In todays day and age no one wants to make equipment that only sounds good with a particular genre intentionaly. It may so happen that certian equipment will render certain genre of music better according to a particular person's hearing.

you definately need a good cdp/dvd player for decent dynamics along with good partnering equipment and cables. Your first step would be to zero in on a demo of an entry level cdp/dvd. Once you get the cdp in then experiment with cables.

Pulz is a good entry level setup for its money but honestly dont expect the world from it. Its best if you got to terms with its good and not so good points and appreciate what it does well. That holds true for all of us and all our systems. Dynamics may or may not be the forte of the pulz systems as compared to the other western imports but then you say it sounds sweet and thats a big plus. Try out the cdp/dvd. It will make a difference not just in dynamics but all round as well.

Manek.

well n force 2( the one u have is very close to creative and in some cases its better than the creative card. this is far better than the common cd players avaialble in the market.

Manek is dead on. This is very true with regard to entry level systems. they live in the low cost world and the last thing they would ever do is specialize in one type of sound.

I do not have a great opinion of Indian electronics in audio, not because of any technical doubts , but in my very own personal and humble opinion, due to the lack of a Market.
The simple fact remains that we have very very few audiophiles around in India. hence most systems, if voiced for neutrality would not sell in numbers to the larger market. hence the need for the Bump and tizz

Only those indian brands which actually live on exports especially to a serious userbase abroad could actually be able to meet some of the "Classic" good sound requirements. (Classic case being second rethm, Cadence..although the owner/designer is still Australian i believe)

I could be called biased, as this extends further into the Unbranded and DIY scene as well and would rather pay more for a branded and reviewed component than an unbranded/unknown component, because I Know that it would do some very basic things right. And most of all It would have a defined Resale value, something you will never never have for a not so well known product.

The same reason that when i got my cdp modded it was done by an audiophile of many years who also happens to be a ,usician to boot other than a DYI enthusiast ( And that is a very rare combination indeed)

Of course the audiophile code of " trust you ears" is to be held binding in all the above statement

Hi Arj,

May I differ from you in some of your points? The import duty for foreign electronics is 35%. So a costlier import is not necessarily better. I have especial doubts about the audiophile character of Yamaha and Jamo speakers in the Rs 15,000 to 35,000 range.

My market observations is that Indian brands like Lithos and Pulz (maybe even Sonodyne)neither have boom nor tizz. They are essentially neutral and balanced components. I can listen to the Pulz for 5hrs without getting yearache. So if you are on a tight budget (Rs 25,000 in my case) Indian components are the way to go. Unfortunately, I ended up with limited dynamics but at that price, the performance of a Krell and B&W can't really be expected.

I agree that volumes are small in India but then Pulz is really a cinema hall audio company which also sells to audiophiles. So their costs are spread.

can anybody give me the specs of the pulz speakers + amplifier? ( Rs25,000 range combo one )
Let me see how they are.. any pictures??

www.pulzaudio.com

neutral, i'm sure a good CDP or DVD with range of pre-processed effects wud bring out the freq ur are longing for. we are so used to extra "frq" tht these kinda amps might sound less dynamic, but 6 months after buying this beast i'm going in for the pure sound of same. u just need to adjust urself to this new sound. infact just chk out this amp without the pre-amp...swear it's sweet and "true"

Hi Neutral,

I wouldn’t quite agree with you there. I am sure Manek and Arj have listened to a lot of good foreign products to have arrived at this conclusion. I have too, and I fully endorse their views here, my pride for the country notwithstanding.

Indian companies have a miniscule market compared to the foreign ones who are exposed to much wider markets and intense competition. They have huge R&D facilities and efforts. Yamaha is a giant; it’s annual R&D budget would probably be more than Pulz’s 5 years’ turnover. I don’t wish to demean Pulz, I am just putting into perspective Yamaha’s efforts. The competition and the R&D ensures that the customer gets real good value for the money.

An audiophile product for Rs10000? I doubt you would ever find such an animal, this is entry level.

If today you are happy with Lithos and Pulz and Sonodyne, good for you! Maybe when you hear more of the renowned foreign ones, you too will understand the difference!

Cheers

In my persuit for something better , I have listened to many Indian Brands ,including the ones being discussed on this forum, barring very few like Cadence , others have to go a long way to come close to good foreign brands.If you listen to them treble is normally bright , the instruments and vocal lose their timber. After having listened to good products , just it is difficult to listen to them for more than few minutes.

Again to put things in the right perspective as Big ears has done so well.
it is not about India Brands. in consumer electronics, automobiles, Pharma, cosmetics, textiles etc etc, we do stand up in our own right..all due to the great domestic market we have.

For the time being there is NO Truely internal market in India ..the volumes are so small that I doubt if it would be commercially viable to get the sound right.

And regarding Import duty, most countries in Europe too have an import duty. the price of American speakers in france are about the same as in India

I have not heard Pulz or Lithos hence I will not comment on them. I did hear sonodyne and will for the price i feel one could do better ie if u put some more money in, you get much more as the benefit in sound.

Hi All,

I will probably get shot by the time I get to India.....but here are questions worth pondering upon

Why cannot we get foreign products at competitive prices ?

Intech is a manufacturer, a distributor and a consumer of various products. The cost of manufacture is minuscule compared to all the margins which keep being added as the goods are passed on from one level to the other. Why cannot the Indian distribution chain live on reduced margins instead of comparing & selling products at US prices and in some cases more then the US prices ?

Okay there is Custom Duties, Octroi & stock moving slowly blah blah but it still does not justify these atrocious prices ? There is also something known as under invoicing....pious as anybody may claim themselves to be.....I being from the industry know what goes on. Oh yes there is warranty which customers in most cases are emotionally blackmailed into paying extra monies. I as a customer have seen how I was bounced from dealer to distributor to manufacturer when it came to fulfilling so called warranties...to me it is just a ruse to extract extra monies. Very few companies live up to their promises. In some cases they do live up, only to be let down by their distribution chain.

Do you think if foreign products were available at affordable prices the Indian audiophile circle would grow ? I think it would......

I know the first question that would be asked is "Put your money where your mouth is.....well Sirs that is exactly what would happen. For those who think that this is hype so be it...only time will tell. Quite frankly I don't need to be selling Audio to make ends meet...I have other irons in the fire. Truth be known they are quite a few other companies in India who are doing audio on the side and hence can also spread out & lower their costs

It is my mission to go about setting a trend that would make Audio more affordable & enjoyable. I can only give the impetus...the rest would have to come from the customers like you all.

Once the price is brought down, then let there be a healthy competition that would only benefit the customer in the long run.

Lowering of prices would encourage local companies to get their act together to increase their quality control & use better components as the gap between the foreign & Indian goods narrow down.

Without getting into specific names & brands. Most Indian hi-fi loudspeakers use a particular brand of local high frequency drivers which is supplied to low end manufacturers abroad. If there was competitive competition they would be forced to use imported high frequency drivers and/or higher priced local products. The same can be said for resistors, currently 10% tolerance resistors are used...if there was competition they would use 1% or .5% tolerance resistors. I can go on as to transformer specifications & capacitor tolerances, inductors etc.. but I don't want to bore you all with technicalities.

As much as the distribution link is to be blamed for the imported products. I feel that most Indian companies are getting away with murder by using inferior components.

All this can only stop if customers demand their rights and gyrate towards companies & products that offer a superior product at a competitive price.

I am ready for the brickbats..so throw them folks...I shall attempt to defend my stance while you take pot shots at me !!

Regards,

Junia.

Dear Junia,

I am in total agreement with you here.

The duty rates charged by the Indian Govt are still steep today and at 250% were simply outrageous in the days of yore! Imagine, a designer/manufacturer putting in his blood and sweat into producing a product and getting a fraction of that percentage as profit. Or a dealer blocking his money to maintain stocks and getting nowhere near that percentage. And the Govt milking us for our hard earned money to disappear into the great Indian black hole...

My point exactly on the quality of components used by the Indian manufacturers, I am sure they leave a lot to be desired. And we all know that the better the quality of the components, the purer the quality of sound.

I am sure the Indian audiophile circle would grow if quality products were made available at reasonable prices. Competition can only benefit the consumer. Remember the good old days when the Govt allowed us to buy only Ambassadors and Premier Padminis? Where are they now?

Cheers

Hi Big-Ears,

I don't doubt that foreign components sound better if you can afford them. B&W, Mission, Avant Garde, Bryston, Krell, and Magnepan would effortlessly crush Indian competition. But at my budget of Rs 25,000 for amp + speakers, only Indian stuff can be purchased.

I love audio but see no sense in spitting in the plate that I have to eat from. That I could obtain balanced and relaxed sound at this price range is itself to be commended.

big-ears schrieb:

Hi Neutral, I wouldn’t quite agree with you there. I am sure Manek and Arj have listened to a lot of good foreign products to have arrived at this conclusion. I have too, and I fully endorse their views here, my pride for the country notwithstanding. Indian companies have a miniscule market compared to the foreign ones who are exposed to much wider markets and intense competition. They have huge R&D facilities and efforts. Yamaha is a giant; it’s annual R&D budget would probably be more than Pulz’s 5 years’ turnover. I don’t wish to demean Pulz, I am just putting into perspective Yamaha’s efforts. The competition and the R&D ensures that the customer gets real good value for the money. An audiophile product for Rs10000? I doubt you would ever find such an animal, this is entry level. If today you are happy with Lithos and Pulz and Sonodyne, good for you! Maybe when you hear more of the renowned foreign ones, you too will understand the difference! Cheers

I don’t really agree with you here. Comparing niche Indian products like lithos, pulz etc.. to mass market Japanese products like Yamaha is not fair. Just because something is foreign and has got lot of R&D money does not give you good quality products. I have owned and extensively listened to products from companies like sansui, pioneer, sony, Onkyo, Yamaha etc.. When it comes to audio, these companies make decent sounding source equipment like cd players and cassette decks. Companies like Sansui, Onkyo and pioneer used to make some decent integrated amps also. But the good models were very few and they don’t make them like that any more. These are mass market companies driven by mass market economies and most of their amps and speakers are real JUNK. I would say speakers made by Lithos, Acoustic portrait, Pulz are far better than any of them. I own acoustic portrait speakers and I have listened to most speaker-specialist “branded” stuff available in Bangalore and I would say the competition starts only at around the 1 Lakh price point. This is because of the high quality design, drivers and electronics used in them. The drivers (typically used in branded speakers costing more than a lakh) are personally matched by the designer and very low tolerance/high quality electronics are used. I went and had a look when my speakers were being made and I was pleasantly surprised by the size and specification of the transformer in the crossover circuit. There are people who do a good job in India. It is true you get better quality if you import from specialist brands. But at what cost ?

Square wave wrote :

There are people who do a good job in India. It is true you get better quality if you import from specialist brands. But at what cost ?

Thats very true with the situation right now and what about the extra care taken while assembling by these hobby driven guys than the balance sheet driven big co's like Onkyo.

I disaree with square wave. Speakers like Dynaudio Audience 42, or Quad 11L,12L which are with in 30K are very good speakers for the amount and they have been hailed all over the world.

Very true. It is the personal attention to details that makes products like these a better buy. Even I was scared to buy local when I could get a branded speaker for the same price. I used to make speakers for my friends when I was in college with bolton drivers and mdf cabinets. My dad was very stingy with cash those days and the beer, bikes and girls needed money..:)) So I knew what goes into speakers and I was able to defeat my mind block easily. But there is a clear line that differentiates mass market Indian companies and niche hobby driven guys like lithos, Acoustic portrait etc..People need to be aware of this.

Well, the question of Branded Vs Unbranded exists in ALL goods not just Audio and the logic is just the same.

for me anything which is not expensive (Eg sub 3000) i might go for unbranded. But anything above that, i do not mind sepnding more for Branded primarily due to security and resale value;

With unbranded or grey market, even a 10 year guarantee is actually valueless as it is purely on word of trust.
anything fortunate or unfortunate happens to the person ( getting a job abroad, higher studies, financial ruin etc etc ) and all that guarantees are void.

Another point is resale value. the resale value of unbranded crashes to about 30% or even less the moment you have bought it and taken it home. A branded would always have a value associated to it and something you can research and compare at so many sites. Infact a cheaper second hand branded component might give you a better resale value !

Neutral, you made a very valid point of Budget. in the end what you look for is the Best sound within your budget. Nothing wrong with that. it is just that you explore all options and then make an informed decisions. there are no right or wrong decisions in this. there are only decisions which match or do not match requirements.

There is nothing Wrong about Bumps and tizzs in recording..no rule which says you should not like it. and everyone who owns a music system is under no compulsion to be "what is perceived as being a audiophile". it goes purely by what you like and what makes you feel good when listening to music !

cheers

[/quote]

I don’t really agree with you here. Comparing niche Indian products like lithos, pulz etc.. to mass market Japanese products like Yamaha is not fair. Just because something is foreign and has got lot of R&D money does not give you good quality products. I have owned and extensively listened to products from companies like sansui, pioneer, sony, Onkyo, Yamaha etc.. When it comes to audio, these companies make decent sounding source equipment like cd players and cassette decks. Companies like Sansui, Onkyo and pioneer used to make some decent integrated amps also. But the good models were very few and they don’t make them like that any more. These are mass market companies driven by mass market economies and most of their amps and speakers are real JUNK. I would say speakers made by Lithos, Acoustic portrait, Pulz are far better than any of them. I own acoustic portrait speakers and I have listened to most speaker-specialist “branded” stuff available in Bangalore and I would say the competition starts only at around the 1 Lakh price point. This is because of the high quality design, drivers and electronics used in them. The drivers (typically used in branded speakers costing more than a lakh) are personally matched by the designer and very low tolerance/high quality electronics are used. I went and had a look when my speakers were being made and I was pleasantly surprised by the size and specification of the transformer in the crossover circuit. There are people who do a good job in India. It is true you get better quality if you import from specialist brands. But at what cost ?[/quote]

Hi Square Wave,

I haven’t really heard Lithos or Pulz or Acoustic Portrait, so I cannot comment specifically on them. However, if you are happy with their performance, once again, good for you! I have heard some others and don’t think I would like to own a single one, especially when there are so many mouth watering products to be had hailed the world across.

The mass market products you mention could be the low budget ones. Have you heard any of the Yamaha/Pioneer/Sony models made for the British market? Hear them and you might consider changing your views. But sure, Yamaha/Denon/Sony etc make mass market products, and what is wrong with that? They also make very high tech products, and by no stretch of imagination could one call a RXV 2500 or a Denon 3805 or Sony STR junk! But I can’t see any of the Indian manufacturers you quote coming out with a competitor to the DSP Z9, or the Denon 5805 in such a hurry! If economies of scale allow the foreign manufacturers to offer a lot of technology at rock bottom prices, well, more power to them.

Also I don’t know what “specialist branded” stuff you have heard upto Rs 1.0 Lakhs that put you off so much. The Dyn Audience 42s, PSB Images, Infinity Primus', Quads, etc, etc, are very high quality speakers available for much less.

On your assertion that R&D does not improve quality, well, if that is your view, you are welcome to it. HM and Premier hardly had any R&D so to speak of, whereas their foreign counterparts like Toyota, Honda, GM, Ford, Suzuki, etc, etc, firmly went the R&D way. Which car would you prefer to own now – an Ambassador or a Premier, or one of the latter?

Cheers

Arj schrieb:

Well, the question of Branded Vs Unbranded exists in ALL goods not just Audio and the logic is just the same. for me anything which is not expensive (Eg sub 3000) i might go for unbranded. But anything above that, i do not mind sepnding more for Branded primarily due to security and resale value; With unbranded or grey market, even a 10 year guarantee is actually valueless as it is purely on word of trust. anything fortunate or unfortunate happens to the person ( getting a job abroad, higher studies, financial ruin etc etc ) and all that guarantees are void. Another point is resale value. the resale value of unbranded crashes to about 30% or even less the moment you have bought it and taken it home. A branded would always have a value associated to it and something you can research and compare at so many sites. Infact a cheaper second hand branded component might give you a better resale value ! Neutral, you made a very valid point of Budget. in the end what you look for is the Best sound within your budget. Nothing wrong with that. it is just that you explore all options and then make an informed decisions. there are no right or wrong decisions in this. there are only decisions which match or do not match requirements. There is nothing Wrong about Bumps and tizzs in recording..no rule which says you should not like it. and everyone who owns a music system is under no compulsion to be "what is perceived as being a audiophile". it goes purely by what you like and what makes you feel good when listening to music ! cheers

Yeah…I agree. It is a matter of priorities ! My priority is musical pleasure. I want a product which will give me the best for the amount I pay. I could not find a branded product to satisfy me at my budget. There is no point in owning a product which does not make you happy even though it has lot of resale value. My Bose 401 comes to mind. I owned that speaker for almost 3 years and what a waste of time! I actually sold it for a very negligible loss. Does that make me happy ? NO ! If I had truckloads of money to burn, I wouldn’t mind buying a branded speaker which will satisfy me. There is a reason why DIY is a big industry abroad…

Hi, Could you please tell me which speaker amp combos you have heard that have fantastic dynamics. This would be helpful for those making fresh purchases.

Guys,

Being a manufacturing professional, I cannot but jump in to this discussion.

Manufactuirng today has changed a lot, from yesteryears, where companies made everything they sold. Today very few "brands" own complete manufacturing facilities, nor do they want to.In fact there is a famous and expensive european luxury car model that is totally manufactured by someone else. Take computers, cars, soaps, shampoos or even medicines....it's the same story.

Let's move to electronics. The Toshiba TV you buy will have a Philip's tuner, a samsung Tube, a hitachi motherboard.... and would be assembled by Videocon in Ahmednagar. No kidding!!!

So what's the "brand" value, that you pay for?

Coming to audio products, a speaker manufacurer in all probability will not make the drivers, crossovers or even the cabinet. Some never even touch their own products, from manufacture to sale. So if someone else buys the same sub-systems from the same sub-contractors, would it sound the same? To a great extent.... yes.

Would you pay your neighbour Rs 60,000 for a cadence rip-off speakers, that he assembles using the same components on his terrace? Probably, no.

The same analysis can be applied to amplifiers, cd players etc.. and you would end up with the same set of questions.

If you made the same aggregate using the same sub-system or sub assemblies, but without the logo, would you....

a) Be able to charge the same?
b) Incur the same cost to manufacture?
c) be as reliable?
d) satisfy the aspirations of consumers?
e) make your product look as good?

and perhaps the most "inconsequential" ....

e) SOUND THE SAME?????

...........................end of part I.......

Roshan.

Hi Big ears,

Sure these guys makes some good AV recievers.When I mentioned audio, I was keeping stereo in mind because this is a stereo forum. I am not aware of the big boys in the AV business. Maybe some video/audio guy could chip in here..)
In audio I was talking about the amplifier and speaker technology. As most seasoned audiophiles know, there has not been much advancement in technology in these two fields in the last twenty five years or so. This is not what most manufacturers will tell you. They will add some chip in the processor section of the AV receiver and proclaim it as the latest technology. But this is not advancement in sound amplification or reproduction. It is basically an add-on to basic amplification technology which already exists. If you take the latest flagship reciever from Denon/ yamaha or marantz and compare its amplifier section to a 15 year old flagship Bryston, MF, Mc-intosh or krell, sugden etc..you will know the av reciever is junk. What you get with a modern receiver is good AV sound processing and sound management technologies which are basically add-ons. That is the reason why you get the receiver for less than quarter of its price in the second hand market within three years. That is the reason why smart AV guys buy just the sound processor and then add power amps made by the big boys. It makes it more flexible also.

I wanted floorstanders at around half a lakh. I know good bookshelf speakers exist for this price. But then I have look out for a matching sub which will take the total expense to a lakh. The only reasonably priced floorstander I liked was the quad 22L at 75k. But frankly I liked the AP better at a much lower price point. As I said earlier, good speaker technology exists for more than a couple of decades. People have even been making clones of most popular models of proac, AR etc.. for ages at quarter of the price. There are instances where some seasoned audiophiles preferred the clone to the original ones also. It is available for any hobbyist who has the drive and inclination to make good speakers. From my observation, it is only at the super high end audio, where you need continuous refinement of technology and path breaking products every two years etc…For example, if you take B&W, it is only the super high-end nautilus series which gets improved. And you are not going to get those refinements unless you shell out a lot of money. Most speakers costing below a couple of lakhs are all playing around with the same old technology which has been available to anybody for a long time. They will come out with a new series every two years with new color/material for the woofer etc.. and proclaim that it is path breaking technology. The truth is that they will sound similar to the older series. This is to fool the gullible public who always wants the “LATEST” .There are a lot of cases where the older series were better than the new ones. Case in point is the older wharfedales, Infinity, Acoustic research etc.. The older wharfedales sounds far better than the “LATEST KEVLAR” Chinese woofer clad versions !

Hi Square wave,

This is turning out into a interesting discussion!

But, you may be comparing apples and oranges here. Sure the amplification section of a flagship AVR receiver cannot be compared to that of a Krell or a Mcintosh. What is present in an AVR receiver is adequate for the job it is supposed to do which is process and amplify HT material. It isn’t required to bother about soundstaging, or imaging or resolution. But there is also another angle to this point. The AVRs we have mentioned are Japanese, whereas the stereo amps are British / American / Canadian. Now which seasoned audiophile would compare a Japanese amp to a Krell or a Bryston or a MCIntosh?

There may not have been much of advancement in basic speaker/amplifier technology per se, but I am sure there is an improvement in the products available today, because of the improvement in materials and manufacturing processes of various components like capacitors, resistors, transformers etc. Technology and improved manufacturing processes today allow materials, hitherto only the preserve of the exotic, to be used in more commonplace systems. I wouldn’t therefore quite agree with you when you say there has been no improvement in the past 25 years. Improvement is certainly there, only there hasn’t been any radical change. But then it is like saying, because cars 25 years back had 4 wheels and a steering wheel and ran on roads, and they do so even today, there is hardly any advancement in automobile technology. This is surely a little off the mark. Drive a car which is 25 years old and then drive a modern one and the advancement will soon be obvious. In amps, 200wpc has become commonplace today, 25 years ago how many amps were there in the market delivering that kind of an output? And the price of the ones which did? This is only on the stereo front, when it comes to AV, there has been a sea change. 25 years ago there was no DD or DTS, why, Prologic became available to the consumers only in the 90s.

On the smart AV guys buying processors and adding power amps, in addition to being smart they would have to be real well heeled too. Surround processors cost an arm and a leg. Try buying a Lexicon processor!

Speakers are a highly subjective issue. People may be making clones of popular models for ages. I too would love to make a clone of the Evidence Master for my listening room. But how would I ever be able to replicate the infinite testing and the minute modifications/amendments that Dynaudio would be carrying out their super high tech facility? Don’t want to fool myself going that way.

Kevlar, yes. Agree with you there. It is simply not the wonder material for speaker cones that it was thought to be. Don’t want to comment on B&W’s policy, but Dynaudio has been using the same basic material for its drivers for a number of years. Yes, they might have made some changes in the voice coils / magnets etc, in the name of advancement, however.

Bottom line is finding something that suits your ears at your budget, and staying happy.

Cheers

Big ears wrote :

But then it is like saying, because cars 25 years back had 4 wheels and a steering wheel and ran on roads, and they do so even today, there is hardly any advancement in automobile technology

Yup CNG kicked in..MPFI's kicked in but it's the age old Internal combustion engine piston engine. How about aircrafts sme old turbine tech....may be advancements but not replacing an arm with a leg..right!

Bottom line is finding something that suits your ears at your budget, and staying happy. Cheers

how could it go without this..here take it....
puff
puff
puff

Hi big ears,
I am not literally comparing the two. I am just trying to prove the point that amplification technology in its cleanest form has been there for more than a couple of decades. In fact you may find better amplification in a 15 year old krell than a new flagship AV receiver.
I agree with you that good sound has become affordable today because of improved manufacturing process.
Evidence master is a super high end speaker. I have already posted that there is continuous refinement of technology in super high end audio. Most speakers that we seek do not belong there. I am just trying to prove the point that technology to develop very good sounding speakers which are affordable is very much available to people who have the drive and the right connections to a research facility. Siva of acoustic portrait is one I know personally. There may be others but I do not know them.

Gosh this is really getting very very interesting !

With all your permission may I formulate a seperate thread ?

Gosh my darn work @#$%^& I want to jump in right away...but I guess I will restrain myself for a few more hours.

At long last we don't have a me greater than thou discussion !

Can we have more interesting discussions like this ? It really seems to bring the very best out of all of us !

Way to go Sirs !!

Regards,

Junia.

Wouldnt agree with you more .
The essence is not the manufacturing but the design. Almost every CDP no matter what price uses a Philips or a sony transport but each do sound different.

Most Brands like Mark Levison, Vincent, Rotel, Theil are all manufactured in China..but it is their design which sets them apart not the manufacturing. This is what I am talking about ie the Know how to voice a component.

Eg the harbeth. it is voiced and personally tested by the owner (In fact he used to use his own daughters voice to test it out..) Same for Reference 3a, JM Reynaud, Living Voice, Sugden etc etc.

My take is NOT on the technical side of things, but in the actual design to give a voice signature to the product.
Even Cadence is only manufactured in India . the design is done by an australian who actually started his plant in India due to the flagrant abuse of IPR in china (Cayin, Consonance, Shanling are all copies of western designs by OEM manufacturers)

APPLEs products are ALL manufactured and assembled in China/Taiwan. but the design is all american.

roshan schrieb:

Guys, Being a manufacturing professional, I cannot but jump in to this discussion. Manufacturing today has changed a lot, from yesteryears, where companies made everything they sold. Today very few "brands" own complete manufacturing facilities, nor do they want to.In fact there is a famous and expensive european luxury car model that is totally manufactured by someone else. Take computers, cars, soaps, shampoos or even medicines....it's the same story. Let's move to electronics. The Toshiba TV you buy will have a Philip's tuner, a samsung Tube, a hitachi motherboard.... and would be assembled by Videocon in Ahmednagar. No kidding!!! So what's the "brand" value, that you pay for? Coming to audio products, a speaker manufacurer in all probability will not make the drivers, crossovers or even the cabinet. Some never even touch their own products, from manufacture to sale. So if someone else buys the same sub-systems from the same sub-contractors, would it sound the same? To a great extent.... yes. Would you pay your neighbour Rs 60,000 for a cadence rip-off speakers, that he assembles using the same components on his terrace? Probably, no. The same analysis can be applied to amplifiers, cd players etc.. and you would end up with the same set of questions. If you made the same aggregate using the same sub-system or sub assemblies, but without the logo, would you.... a) Be able to charge the same? b) Incur the same cost to manufacture? c) be as reliable? d) satisfy the aspirations of consumers? e) make your product look as good? and perhaps the most "inconsequential" .... e) SOUND THE SAME????? ...........................end of part I....... Roshan.

Arj,
Just to point out that Cadence is designed by an austrian and not an australian. His name is Walter Schmid. He is not the sole propreitor of the company. It is Ajay Shirke and Mahendra Dave who along with Walter Schmid as his chief designer started cadence in Pune. Ajay Shirke has put in most of the capital and is a very well known industralist in Pune.
Yes, the IPR could be one of the reasons but as I see it they chose India not just to keep their designs safe but becuase of the the availability of office and manufacturing space, wood of their choice(hardwood for their electrostats baffles), engineering and manufacturing expertise from Ajay Shirke's group of companies etc. The woodwork on their speakers is entirely done by hand and takes a few days to cure and assemble. They take a lot of pride in their work.

Manek.

Hi Manek,

You are correct on the country of origin I was a bit confused in my memory about the two thanks for correcting that

I was speaking to the distributor of Cadence in Singapore who told me this story of how and why china was rejected and then Pune in India chosen (Think Rajneesh Ashram also had a role in it).

From what I had heard IPR was the main issue as Space Wood supply in china is better and and so is its manufacturing expertise. With so many of the worlds speakers being manufactured there, they better be

anyways that was Indias gain

Arj,..the rajneesh ashram was where Walter Schmid was camping at that moment. His ashram name is "shanti".
It was a chance meeting between Ajay,Mahendra and Walter that sparked off the idea of cadence as Walter was a very respected engineer working with Philips(Europe)I was told in their R&D section.

You are right, good for India !

Manek.

first thing- this what i feel about dynamic range with respect to stereo system.lets assume i am playing rock music.starting with the volume control at 8 everything thing sounds fine.now gradually increasing the volume the sound doesnt seem improve the bass sounds a bit thuddy,instrument separation is affected,drums start sounding a bit thin.sound definetly seems to go towards the worse side.this i think is the amplifier mistake due to lack of power in driving the entire frequency range most amp power are quoted at 1khz so very less power at lower frequency and also we should not forget the souce material if recording is compressed(which most commercial recording are)affects the dynamic range of the system.
am i making sense or not correct me if i am wrong.