Why Does The iPod Sound So Bad In A Good Stereo System ?

Because it is bad. The 1st and 2nd gen ipods were the good ones. Current video ipods are just mass market crap.

Zhopudey is right,
after 3rd gen they compromised on the DAC and the digital amp used (used to be the tripath earlier) in order to reduce the size for the video ipod.

thats why even red wine audio does not mod the ones after that..

same reason as to why i will never part with my 3rd gen one !!!!

I'm inclined to agree w/ the other 2 fellas - Arj & zhopudey.

bad sound, in general, is the result of:
poor quality DACs
using a poor quality output buffer.
using a kick-ass opamp buffer (like the OPA 627) but implementing it in a compromised fashion.
poor power supply regulation.
not separating the analog & digital power supplies thereby allowing the digital section to pollute all that it "touches".
compromises in the PCB layout where traces cross-couple &/or have too many vias down the multi-layer PCB & then back up. Each via is highly resistive & suspect to pick-up.
Using highly resistive PCB traces.
Video freq (RF in comparison) polluting the audio signal due to its proximity.
Xtal not shielded with a can or conformal shielded thereby the clock spews RF garbage everywhere.

Some of the reasons......









The product still works like a charm w/ a relatively low SNR (signal to noise ratio) hence it sounds very good when the the ambient has a relatively high noise level such as when jogging, in an airplane or airport, automobile, etc.
And, this is just about enough for the junta - they love it actually! - but the moment you connect it to a system that has been carefully put together & has fairly low noise levels, the iPod shows its true colours.

The reason it sounds bad, IMHO, is that the SNR is rather low hence you lose the subtlties in the music thus the enjoyment & emotion that it brings.

bombaywalla schrieb:

I'm inclined to agree w/ the other 2 fellas - Arj & zhopudey. bad sound, in general, is the result of: poor quality DACs using a poor quality output buffer. using a kick-ass opamp buffer (like the OPA 627) but implementing it in a compromised fashion. poor power supply regulation. not separating the analog & digital power supplies thereby allowing the digital section to pollute all that it "touches". compromises in the PCB layout where traces cross-couple &/or have too many vias down the multi-layer PCB & then back up. Each via is highly resistive & suspect to pick-up. Using highly resistive PCB traces. Video freq (RF in comparison) polluting the audio signal due to its proximity. Xtal not shielded with a can or conformal shielded thereby the clock spews RF garbage everywhere. Some of the reasons...... The product still works like a charm w/ a relatively low SNR (signal to noise ratio) hence it sounds very good when the the ambient has a relatively high noise level such as when jogging, in an airplane or airport, automobile, etc. And, this is just about enough for the junta - they love it actually! - but the moment you connect it to a system that has been carefully put together & has fairly low noise levels, the iPod shows its true colours. The reason it sounds bad, IMHO, is that the SNR is rather low hence you lose the subtlties in the music thus the enjoyment & emotion that it brings.

Thanks for the detailed scientific information. Are any of the competition better sounding than the iPod - Archos, Creative, Microsoft etc?
Is the sound problem principally caused by stuffing too many components into too small an area, thus resulting in high levels of signal interference? As portable players are inherently small, I am not sure how they will be able to keep the circuits apart or provide bigger traces. Is big better here too, as in speakers.

For all its flaws, an iPod is a 100 times better than music on a cell phone! Or an AM/ FM radio.

Neutral schrieb:

Thanks for the detailed scientific information. Are any of the competition better sounding than the iPod - Archos, Creative, Microsoft etc?

no idea!!

Neutral schrieb:

Is the sound problem principally caused by stuffing too many components into too small an area, thus resulting in high levels of signal interference? As portable players are inherently small, I am not sure how they will be able to keep the circuits apart or provide bigger traces. Is big better here too, as in speakers.

I don't think that stuffing lots of items in a small area is an issue in & of itself. What is an issue is not paying attention to details like interference & then doing something about it. They could well be aware of it but choose not to do anything about it due to cost reasons. For mass market stuff it's ALL about cost & gross margin. People like us who want a hi performance can, generally, go fly a kite!
you can solve any problem w/ some effort which xlates to BOM of the unit. That in turn xlates to selling price. Marketing usually has a good idea of what the market will bear & one needs to back calc what the BOM needs to be for a desired gross margin.

Neutral schrieb:

For all its flaws, an iPod is a 100 times better than music on a cell phone! Or an AM/ FM radio. :{

the radio part I do not fully agree. You need to listen to some nice FM tuners! You will be stunned! I have a couple of fairly nice ones & my friend has a really nice Magnum Dynalab FT101 for the past 12 years. You should hear that one! iPod, shyPod!

The 1st and 2nd gen ipods were the good ones. Current video ipods are just mass market crap.

I have heard this comment frequently.

Infact I had the opportunity to compare a Gen 2 Ipod with the Gen V video pod.

Sorry Sir !

A different, more lively sound on the Gen V pod... different, and to me preferable to the unmodded Gen 2 ipod.

I would be happy to repeat the experiment if someone in the Mumbasi area has a Gen 2 Ipod...

Any takers for the challenge ?

Gentleman, an I-Pod is a great device to listen to music.
Each & Every 'Music Lover' should have 1.
However, it is not ment for an 'audiophile'
Its emphasis was / is music on the move & convenience. Apple never intended it to be a medium for 'true reproduction of sound'
So let it be at that.
Buy an I-Pod to listen to music - pure convenience.
Buy a Hi-Fi System for other audio hobbies, simple.....

I agree with you, bhagwan69.

My question is that why does the ipod sound so good on good headphones ?

Even if you factor in a Headphone amp... which is Supposed to Not add any signature of its own... just provide better drive.

A pre amp or an integrated amp will provide an even Lighter load to the ipod, than an Headphone amp...

So then why does the Ipod still sound good on Headphones but shabby in a good stereo ?

Is it that the Headphone based system is Just Not Revealing Enough ?

Small Suggestion;

I do not know much about Head Phones, however, what I can suggest is take a top notch CD Player, into a Stax Omega Control Unit then into a Stax Head Phone and listen to it.
It is such a 'sublime experiance'

On a slightly lowere price point, Bayer Dynamics / Senheisser / Grado etc. [not any particular make that I like] through a reasonable cd player will surely surprise you.

Try these out. If you already have [which I know you have - the Stax i.e.] try them again with the I-Pod in the other hand & then evaluate it.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Infact I had the opportunity to compare a Gen 2 Ipod with the Gen V video pod. Sorry Sir ! A different, more lively sound on the Gen V pod... different, and to me preferable to the unmodded Gen 2 ipod. I would be happy to repeat the experiment if someone in the Mumbasi area has a Gen 2 Ipod... Any takers for the challenge ?

You heard the video ipod on your stax cans and liked it? When I tried it in my setup I could hardly concentrate on the music over all the distortion Then again, maybe it was some problem on my part

I would like to try out ipods on your stax cans

zhopudey schrieb:

You heard the video ipod on your stax cans and liked it? When I tried it in my setup I could hardly concentrate on the music over all the distortion Then again, maybe it was some problem on my part I would like to try out ipods on your stax cans :)

which headphones did you use ?

Whoa !

So much distortion to what I said ! LOL !

I never mentioned using my ipod on the stax and liking it.

Arj, thanks for anchoring the chat back to reality , when you asked :

which headphones did you use ?

I use the iPod, and Like it on the ipod earbuds, and others From Philips ( a warmer and better sound than the earbuds ) and AKG ( a more detailed but leaner sound than the Philips.)

I do Not like the sound of the iPod played back on STAX or on when played thru my stereo system (Speakers) .

Bhagwan69, I have only a middle-of-the-road Denon 2900 Universal player, and even that is STREETS ahead of the iPod, when both are played on Speakers. No need to pull in a Top Notch CD player into the mix ...

zhopudey said :

When I tried it in my setup I could hardly concentrate on the music over all the distortion

Sir If you heard Outright distortion on yr set up, when the ipod was connected, I suspect that the iPod volume was set too high.

There should CERTAINLY not be any audible distortion !

The ipod sounds very good frm 320kbps to Lossless and one can verry clearly make out a 128kbps file
I use a B&O earphone when i do listen to it as a personal payer but that is too rare these days..i primarily use it as my car system in which i does aq very decent job of soundstaging et al.

I have used a GradoSR60 and found it does a very good job of decent audiophile quality output.

I have found it to be comparable to my unmodded NAD521BEE cdp when used with a Tube Buffer (X10D) after inumerable A?Bs

with my current Classe/Wadia setup though the slight muted dynamics is quite apparent...

my guess is that the output buffer(memory) of the ipod is limited hence does not do a great job of playing large files.

Amp_nut could you try am experiment ? if you can splice just around 1min of a track from a high quality recording and make a separate lossless file from it and then check out the iPod on your hifi ?

Hi Arj,

I have the luxury of a 80GB V pod...

Hence a LOT of my stuff is on 320K mp-3, and select discs in wav.

The garden variety music is at 192K mp3.

These are what I have used to compare ... Wav filoes on the iPod to my CD player.
The ipod is certainly clean and clear, but not enjoyable. Like in your case, it serves primary duty in the Car, and matches OK in sound quality with the car CD player, even though I use a cassette interface ... I cant blame the ipod because of the cassette interface.

I must add, I remain VERY happy with the iPod playing thru earbuds and the like....

Amp_Nut schrieb:

zhopudey said : When I tried it in my setup I could hardly concentrate on the music over all the distortion Sir If you heard Outright distortion on yr set up, when the ipod was connected, I suspect that the iPod volume was set too high. There should CERTAINLY not be any audible distortion !

Yeah, I had set ipod volume to max, and was using my alps pot. But maybe disortion is not the correct word. There was a overall noise that was quite annoying.

i have tried playing with a combination of my vehicles HU vs ipod power output to get the right combination and have definitely not heard any distortions...and my audio setup[ if not Hifi is definitely decent and significantly above average.

i found it comparable to most entry level cdps and definitely better than common DVDps.

i can think of only 3 issues for your problem of distortion
1. problem with the ear bud (Highest volume of an iPOD is HIGH )
2. Problem with the ipod Amp
3. some problem with your file.

with most ear/head phones i only vary between 30-60% of the volume and that is bad enough. the ipod output has a digital am and those are very clean for low outputs.

Hi All,
This topic is of great interest to me. I had a similar experience as amp_nut a while ago when I tried connecting my Creative Zen player to my Integrated amp. This mp3 player sounds very clean, dynamic and dare I say "Audiophile like".
I have compared this to iPod and I found iPod (the latest ones) to be much more coloured (equalized) for masses. Connected to my MS-1, the combo sounds amazing but things go awry when:

1. I try using my mp3 player as a source to my integrated amp....there is a huge slump in dynamics and all I get is a very flat and dull sound.

2. I try driving my headphone out of a CDP analog out or my Integrated amp pre-out....again I get a similarly flat/dull sound on my headphones.

To me it seems more about an impedance mis-match case rather than anything else. While my CDP expects a high-impedance load so its happy driving my amp at 47kohm but fails miserably when it sees a 32ohm load of my headphone (Grados are generally easy loads on portable players). The case is reversed when it comes to the Zen player...its happy driving low impedance loads (32ohm headphone in my case) but collapses when it sees a 47kohm integrated amp.

If we could accomodate a good buffer stage between the mp3 player and the integrated amp so that the mp3 player sees a low impedance load and the buffer output stage is happy seeing a high impedance load (int amp)....things would be different I suppose .

I use Koss Porta Pro and i think they sound great. I got no PreAmp, for home listening I use the Phones Out from my components (Revox PR99 MK III/AKAI AM75/AKAI GX75/AKAI CD57) but whenever I heard an Ipod I wasn't really thrilled by the unit, I never heard an mp3 Player that sounded as good as an old Sony Walkman DD/DD II/DC2 or D6C, I don't mean that the tape sounds better than mp3 but the amps used in those old units are much better than the tiny shrill sounding ones on mp3 players, that's the problem I think. With the German Setup the Ipod doesn't get louder on max volume than my Walkmans on 3 or 4, the american setup is much louder but It hurts in my ears on higher volumes, my Walkmans doesn't, I never listened louder to them as on 6. On a train or bus it's sometimes not bad to turn it a little louder. I can't understand that it is possible to get 160 GB on such a tiny thing like the Ipod an watching Video on it but not using a better sounding amp.

Best Regards, Tobi

If we could accomodate a good buffer stage between the mp3 player and the integrated amp so that the mp3 player sees a low impedance load and the buffer output stage is happy seeing a high impedance load (int amp)....things would be different I suppose

Actually this is not technically correct.

A Buffer's job is to provide a High Impedance load to the iPod and a low impedance load to the next stage ( the amplifier )

However, the iPod is designed to drive a 32 ohm load. The buffer infact cannot drive such a low load from its line outputs.

Hence the buffer is redundant in this aplication, and infact will perform WORSE than the ipod driving the amp directly

If the uffer sounds better... then its a matter of the user liking the audible sonic signature (distortion ) introduced by the buffer....

Amp_Nut schrieb:

If we could accomodate a good buffer stage between the mp3 player and the integrated amp so that the mp3 player sees a low impedance load and the buffer output stage is happy seeing a high impedance load (int amp)....things would be different I suppose Actually this is not technically correct. A Buffer's job is to provide a High Impedance load to the iPod and a low impedance load to the next stage ( the amplifier ) However, the iPod is designed to drive a 32 ohm load. The buffer infact cannot drive such a low load from its line outputs. Hence the buffer is redundant in this aplication, and infact will perform WORSE than the ipod driving the amp directly If the uffer sounds better... then its a matter of the user liking the audible sonic signature (distortion ) introduced by the buffer....

Hmm..thanks for educating me on this sir-ji .
Nevertheless I still feel its mostly about impedance mis-match than anything else. The fidelity of the signal from a iPod/Zen is very decent and need'nt be questioned all that much IMO :....what say sirs ??

[OT] Hey abhi, btw, you read my thread? I found the source of my problem
http://www.hifi-foru...um_id=59&thread=1482
[/OT]

Audiophiles and iPods are not the best of friends most of the times. But then, time can be a wonderful thing. Time heals wounds and opens new perspectives. Jadis importer Jesper Hansted had brought MSB's iLink to the show as a novelty. The iLink is an upgrade to an iPod by replacing the often dreaded analogue output with digital. Now you can use a far better DAC to further improve the sound quality. Nice you would say. But it gets better. MSB also offers an RF Link. A small RF transmitter is attached to the iLink output of the upgraded iPod and sends the signal to the MSB docking station from whence the signal moves on to your DAC. Imagine Mr. Audiophile -- add reading glasses -- sitting in his hot seat with an iPod containing 80GB of WAV files (or Apple lossless if you prefer), selecting tracks from that spot just using his thumb. Eighty gig means 80-plus full CDs in WAV or about 180 in Apple lossless. The MSB upgrade is only possible with iPods of 30 or 80GB hard disks. Start saving for Santa, kids.

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/antwerp07/antwerp_2.html

iLink with RF link and iPod Upgrade (Generation 5 only) - $1995
iLink with RF link and Generation 5 80MB upgraded iPod Video - $2349. (white or black)
additional iPod upgrades - $199.



Ofcourse this Excludes the DAC which is required Extra ...



Surely guys, you did not think that MSB woul;d provide ANYTHING that is reasonably priced ...

Amp_Nut schrieb:

iLink with RF link and iPod Upgrade (Generation 5 only) - $1995 iLink with RF link and Generation 5 80MB upgraded iPod Video - $2349. (white or black) additional iPod upgrades - $199.

$2349? That almost Rs 1lac w/o the DAC Here's what I would do instead:

1) Basic PC with a 500gb hard disk - <Rs. 20K
2) Basic Windows Mobile with wifi and IR - ~Rs. 20K
3) Good sound card with a solid digital out. - Rs. ~7K
4) Netremote + Girder. $200. - http://girder.nl/products.php?section=netremote

Thats much more space and much more functionality at almost half the price

But what's that worth if you can't use it on the train or in an aeroplane?

Best Regards, Tobi

You referring to the MSB or to my list? If its the latter, since you're saving almost 40-50K, you are free to buy an ipod for the train/plane

But that doesn't change the problem that the iPod doesn't sound as good and doesn't get as loud as my old Sony Walkmans...