Lyrita: Integre 1 Mini review

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G_S_Madhav
Stammgast

#1 erstellt: 03. Sep 2007, 11:39

Introduction:

About a year back I heard about Lyrita Audio (http://www.lyrita-audio.in). This small set up operating out of New Delhi is run by Mr.Viren Bakhshi, a chemical engineer by training. Lyrita Audio offers valve amps and single driver speakers which according to Lyrita are low cost yet genuine alternatives to the big brands.

Since Lyrita doesn’t have any dealer in my town, it took almost a year to get hold of a Lyrita product the Integre 1’, 36 WPC full valve Integrated amplifier for a home audition.

Look, build, fit and finish:

Valve amps in general look more attractive than their solid-state counterparts. The reddish orange glow of valves seduces many. Lyrita looks Okay but not visually appealing. I think a wider body with lesser depth might help Lyrita look more proportionate and less crowded at the front and back. Typical to valve amps, Lyrita is also assembled on a wooden chassis with black sheet metal plates covering the top. The wood work is just average in fit and finish. The whole unit is supported on four cheap plastic legs. Metals plates at top need more finish and counter sunk Philips head screws. Ventilation is through small holes but I think thin slots look more professional while providing better heat dissipation.

Front portion (housing volume control and input selector switch) which is short in height immediately draws the eye to the valves, 8 in all, displayed at the front. But I think it is better to display only the big EL 34s rather than crowding the space and looking ugly. Lyrita is quite hefty to lift and move around, a clear sign of bigger Iron ware.

Rest layout is pretty standard; the front panel holds only a power switch and LED, a volume knob and an input selector knob. However this simple, minimalist layout is ruined by cheap looking knobs for Volume control and Input Selector. Volume control lacks resolution and fineness while the selector switch offers less tactile feedback or thumps while changing positions. There is another cheapo component at the front, the Power on –off toggle switch that adds to the already established cheapo look and doesn’t inspire any confidence. With these components alone you realize that you are traveling in an Economy class!

The back panel is rather congested with three pairs of input jacks, one pair of Line Out jacks, IEC power socket, one fuse and one set of speaker terminals. The cheapo trend continues here too, with cheap plastic speaker terminals, no legends for input and speaker terminals, no ground terminal, no legends for fuse and power rating, and no Hazard warning logo. Line out terminals are so close to the three pairs input terminals that it appears as forth set of input terminals, quite confusing.

There is no remote volume control as well as bass. Treble and balance controls for this amp. The amp came with EL34s from ‘JJ’.

Listening:

I listen to Jazz, Indian Classical and Western classical so software I selected for the audition was a well balanced mix of all these genres.
I connected the Lyrita between my Pioneer DVD player and Cadence Arita speakers using VDH interconnects and speaker cables. After allowing the tubes to warm up, I began auditioning. One can listen to Lyrita within a couple of minutes after switching it on but my observation is that it sounded much better only after an hour of continues use.

I started with Pt Uday Bhawalkar's Dhrupad recital. The very first 'aalap' from Udayji mesmerized me almost instantly. Totally unbelievable! This is for the second time I went into the trance that fast. The first one was with Cadence VA1.

Lyrita sounded clean, natural, relaxed, luxurious and tonally balanced but at the same time rather thin, loose and less refined. It is slightly on the warmer side but never became forward or harsh at any volume. I found this 36 Watter Lyrita quite adequate for my listening room of 180 sq feet (a room size common in India). At normal listening levels sound is easy and extremely enjoyable, it is only when I pushed the amplifier up near its limits with complex dynamic music, I could notice some hardening begin to creep in. But such artifacts were relatively gentle and the sum effect was extremely pleasing that kept me engaged all the time.

In the recent past I have auditioned several amps from Jolida , NAD, CA, Cyrus, Cayin, Arcam etc. but no one ever conveyed more of the music's emotion than Lyrita ’s lush and textured sound. Only notable exception again was Cadence VA1. Tubes are reputed for liquid mid range and Lyrita is no exception, it offered truly outstanding midrange performance though there was hint of slightly boosted midrange. But at this price, it is still the best I have ever heard. Lyrita is quite talented as far as timbre of instruments is concerned, whether it's the brass or delicate strings, Tabla or Pakhawaj everything sounded very realistic and rich.

Lyrita really surprised with its beautifully delivered crystal-clear vocals. Both male and female voices were solidly anchored and accurately reproduced. Try listening to the newly mastered ‘Saathi Hath Badhana’ from film ‘Naya Daur’ you will realize what I am saying. I was virtually spell bound during the full 72 minutes of ‘Todi’ by Kishori Amonkar, what a magic!! I think this performance alone could win many customers to Lyrita!

While scoring perfect 10 for its midrange performance Lyrita disappointed me with its lower end performance. With no body and weight, it sounded a bit soft, thin and loose. Upper end too showed rounding and definitions were missing. Lack of resonance is yet another BIG BIG let down and with solo piano or guitar/sitar it was more apparent. Something was always missing while playing Oscar Peterson or Keith Jarret (Köln Concerto), I never got that wholesome effect.

Lyrita also needs improvements in both clarity, layering and separation aspects, this is especially more evident while playing Indian Classical music, Tanpura, Harmonium are hard to distinguish. For western classical the performance was satisfactory but I was expecting more dynamics and openness. I didn’t try any rock number as I don’t have any but I tried some soft pop like ‘In between Dreams’ by Jack Johnson I didn’t like the way Lyrita did this number. Similarly fine brass from ‘Ray sings Basie swings’ wasn’t up to the mark. Here I remember fine performance by Cyrus Amp.

Lyrita performed well but when looked at it as a package it was less appealing. Once the mesmerizing effect is over, you start noticing the unrefined sound, boosted midrange, lack of body for lower end. You also see the average build quality, poor fit and finish and lack of attention to details. Then questions regarding quality, reliability and long term ownership will start bugging you. It seems that Lyrita had made many compromises in order to keep the cost down.

I can disregard some cosmetic deficiencies as it is not going to affect the sound quality in any way but can't overlook cheap components especially the knobs, swicthes, Valve sockets, speaker terminals,leg supports, missing ground terminal etc. This coupled with no attention to details leads to reliability concerns. I think Lyrita needs to pay some more attention towards these refinements (even at an extra cost) to wipe out the present day ‘DIY Kit assembly’ look and feel.

Conclusion:

Barring the shortcomings mentioned above, Lyrita was a pure joy to listen to. It performed flawlessly with most genres of music that I threw at it.
Those who listen to vocals and acoustic instruments at moderate levels, and prefer more mellow and emotionally involving music like jazz, blues and classical, will be delighted by Lyrita ‘s details, tonal balance and liquidity

But if you normally listen to aggressive music or keep your tunes cranked, this is not the amp for you.

This is one good amp any prospective buyer must listen to before concluding on anything. With Lyrita you get an exceptional sound quality at a ridiculously low price of 36K but at the same time you should be prepared to compromise on fit and finish, reliability, brand name and resale value.

SUhas

[Beitrag von G_S_Madhav am 03. Sep 2007, 11:41 bearbeitet]

abhi.pani
Inventar

#2 erstellt: 03. Sep 2007, 12:14

Nice summary Suhas!!!

Was just wondering...Cadence Aritas are bookshelves with 86db sensitivity....not really an easy load

. I wonder how the same amp would perform with 90db+ speakers

Arj
Inventar

#3 erstellt: 03. Sep 2007, 12:25

Suhas, I must commend on an extremely well written review. it gives a veey good picture of the component in question and how it performed with your speakers .

stevieboy
Stammgast

#4 erstellt: 03. Sep 2007, 12:34

hi suhas,

good to hear you finally got to listen to the amp. a couple of points i'd like to add -

1. a dvd player would give you less bass and pretty unrefined sound

so i dont know if you are right in ascribing those aspects to the amp. i know cos i have used one for a while in combo with his amp till i got a cd player

2. your speakers are not the ideal match IMO for the amp. i have heard the aritas and to my ears they sound good only at higher volumes like most modern day speakers which need to be driven hard to reach optimum listening levels. sensitivity of around 88 right? you're losing a lot of precious initial watts rather than them being translated into music which would be the case with a higher sensitivity speaker.

3. there is no 'brand name' like you say but the advantages are the upgrade path viren offers. these include upgrades he gives you for your amp and buybacks. few weeks back, i installed an upgrade sent by him and the sound improved dramatically! cost: rs 140 for soldering iron and solder. time spent: an hour. thats it. in fact i'll be moving up to a SET and instead of hunting for a buyer for the old amp it goes right back to him!

4. bass would not be as tight as with a solid state. that's a tradeoff one needs to accept if one wants the valve benefits.

try it with higher sensitivity speakers. the sound would definitely be better i think.

overall i'd personally prefer a diy looking amp that's affordable rather than a higher costing amp with parts that would add only marginally to the sound improvement in comparison with the additional outlay. but then to each his own

a few questions that maybe viren can answer. is this the amp with an interstage transformer like all your new models? or does it trade that for more tubes and power? and does it have the new caps?

regards

Kamal
Stammgast

#5 erstellt: 03. Sep 2007, 13:33

Hi Suhas.
a nice, detailed post-the effort put in is apparent.
Abt the looks, F&F-in case they can be improved with a little extra cost, OK, but if its going to add significantly to the price, Hmmmm, I'd not be very quick in saying OK.
Abt the listening experience, your take is spot on re the emotional involvement; re the other factors, they are in line with Valves'strenghts/Limitations.
So, one has to decide what is more important to YOU personally & that obviously depends on one's choice of music.
I do wish you could have listened with Hi Effy spkrs/single driver spkrs-any chance of a trip to Delhi?
Steve has perfectly covered some other points in his post, so no point repeating them.
BTW, how did the shootoff with Cadence's VA1 go off?

[Beitrag von Kamal am 03. Sep 2007, 13:35 bearbeitet]

Neutral
Stammgast

#6 erstellt: 03. Sep 2007, 17:35

Thanks Suhas,

For a fantastic post. Cheers to the most thoroughly written post of September.

Could you please mention your partnering equipment to give us more perspective:
Speakers
Source
Room placement

I would surely like to listen to a valve amp. I have only heard solid state till now, but would like to sample the grass on the other side.

G_S_Madhav
Stammgast

#7 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 05:25

Neutral schrieb:

Could you please mention your partnering equipment to give us more perspective:
Speakers
Source
Room placement

Speakers: Cadence Arita 86 db bookshelf w/ Cadence stands
Source: Pioneer 383S DVDP
Interconnects: VDH 102 M-III
Speaker cables: VDH Goldwater

Room Size: 12 x 15 x 10 (W-L-H)

Speaker placement: 2.75' from back wall, 3' from side wall, distance between speakers 6' CTC.

Listening position: 6' from speaker centre line

[Beitrag von G_S_Madhav am 04. Sep 2007, 05:26 bearbeitet]

viren
Stammgast

#8 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 07:07

Hi SUhas,

Thanks for a detailed writeup on the Lyrita Audio Integre One amp.

My comments :

As far as appearance goes, all I can say is that "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder". To my eyes, the amp is intentionally understated and elegant. The beauty is in the valves. When they light up and produce music, they are beautiful. I have no intention of hiding any of them!

The cabinet is fashioned from solid sheesham (North Indian rosewood). It is handcrafted, the joinery is meticulate. Some blemishes may show, but that is the nature of hancrafted items. And I am very happy to employ old world craftsmen, and encourage their slowly dying out craft.

The parts used are the best I can source in India. If you favour only imported parts, then you have to look at imported equipment. Actually, the electronics industry in India has a long and distinguished history - the component quality is excellent. However, critical parts I have imported. These are Kiwame resistors, Blackgate bypass capacitors, aluminium/paper-in-oil coupling capacitors. The volume pot is a special order 2-channel pot with concentric shafts from Vishay/Sfernice of France. If you have any issue with these, I don't think I can better them.

And the money has gone inside the amp. There is an oversize power transformer, 3 chokes to smooth the power supply, 2 interstage audio transformers, 2 oversize audio output transformers. All that iron - no wonder the amp weighs 21 kg.

Anyway, it's the sound quality that matters. (I wish you had used a better CD player, and interconnects other than vdH. These interconnects, whenever I have used them, have always given me a "mushy" sound.) And here is where there are inconsistancies.

You are immersed and "mesmerized" by the sound, yet it is "thin, loose and less refined". The music's emotion is conveyed with "lush and textured sound", yet "you start noticing the unrefined sound, boosted midrange, lack of body".

To me, any hint of artificiality in the sound means an immediate turning off, and lack of involvement. If the music involves you, the amp must be doing things right!

I've always believed that an audio component cannot perceive what type of music is playing through it. If it sounds right, it should play all music right! However, there can be perceived differences between reproduction of acoustic instruments and electronic ones. And, if an amp reproduces acoustic recordings well, there's a good chance it will reproduce rock well too - not the other way round!

Viren.

stevieboy
Stammgast

#9 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 07:34

Neutral schrieb:

Thanks Suhas,

I would surely like to listen to a valve amp. I have only heard solid state till now, but would like to sample the grass on the other side. 8)

neutral,

the glass glows brighter this side of the amp fence

anytime you're in bangalore, you've got my number!

stevieboy
Stammgast

#10 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 07:47

viren schrieb:

Hi SUhas,

I've always believed that an audio component cannot perceive what type of music is playing through it. If it sounds right, it should play all music right!
Viren.

hehe this is one of the weirdest phenomenons i've come across. i agree that amps should not be able to 'perceive' what is flowing through them but what i think happens is that so many manufacturers perhaps 'voice' their equipment to sound better in certain areas like treble or bass or whatever depending on their design philosophy. this then translates into being a good amp/speaker/cd player for pop or classical or rock or whatever. which is entirely the wrong approach if one goes by common sense.

the key i guess in the second part of the statement 'if it sounds right, it should play all music right!'

most equipment sounds 'right' only with certain types of music. sad but true.

Arj
Inventar

#11 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 07:54

viren schrieb:

Hi SUhas,

Thanks for a detailed writeup on the Lyrita Audio Integre One amp.

My comments :

Hi Viren, would like to hear from you on the voicing of the amps. do you do them with your speakers ?. also would you be able to throw light on how generic an amp can be voiced ?

ie in other words, what are the factors which could affect the sound quality of amps when reproduced by different speakers (other than obvious ones like Drivers, cabinet and crossovers).

My reason for asking this is that somehow i feel that every amp has a soulmate in speakers (and vice versa) which make it sing to optimum...and our quest should be to get that "Jodi" for that component.

Neutral
Stammgast

#12 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 07:59

To summarise the Lyrita amp's shortcomings:
1. Less bass, so thin sound
2. Less upper treble harmonics, so less detail
3. Lack of microdynamics, so less refined
4. Harmonics attenuated, so lack of resonance

Suhas, do confirm if I got these points right. The question that arises is WHY?
Is there an impedance/ sensitivity mismatch (lack of compatibility) between the Cadence Arita and the amp? Or is this amp suffering from certain deficiencies? Valve experts do reply?

Cheap parts used:
Unfortunately, as Viren says, this is the bane of all Indian products e.g. my local plastic speaker connector has developed a crack within a year. If one sources locally, this problem can't be avoided. Thankfully, Viren has paid attention to some of the bigger components (like transformers, caps, etc)

G_S_Madhav
Stammgast

#13 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 08:14

Neutral schrieb:

I am no expert but I too believe what you mentioned. I tried Lyrita amp with:

1> Rockson Kandy and Jolida CDP
2> Siltech Interconnects
3> Cadence Arita

at Mahendra Dave's place. Results were still the same.
Then I tried Cadence VA1 , in the same set up with the same music. VA1 got everything right.

[Beitrag von G_S_Madhav am 04. Sep 2007, 08:20 bearbeitet]

G_S_Madhav
Stammgast

#14 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 08:20

Neutral schrieb:

Cheap parts used:
Unfortunately, as Viren says, this is the bane of all Indian products e.g. my local plastic speaker connector has developed a crack within a year. If one sources locally, this problem can't be avoided. Thankfully, Viren has paid attention to some of the bigger components (like transformers, caps, etc)

For me sound quality and reliability are equally important.Poor man pays twice.

Arj
Inventar

#15 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 08:30

Neutral schrieb:

Again I think we are on sensitive ground here so should tread more surely. this definitely is Suhas experience but with Cadence Aritas. so maybe that is not a match made in heaven

Stevieboy uses the same amps with different speakers and finds no such problem

so that above points are a description of the Amp + Speaker.

G_S_Madhav
Stammgast

#16 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 08:50

viren schrieb:

I wish you had used a better CD player, and interconnects other than vdH. These interconnects, whenever I have used them, have always given me a "mushy" sound. And here is where there are inconsistancies.

I did try your amp at Mahendra Dave's place, there we used Rockson Kandy and Jolida as Sources, Siltech interconnects and Cadence Arita. My earlier observations didn't change much. And then immediately after that I put Cadence VA1 in the place of Lyrita. Same set up, same music and VA1 got everything right.

The parts used are the best I can source in India.

Just to give an example here. Mickey Registrar (from where I got this amp) owner of Lyrita mono blocks, has changed the volume and Input selector knobs. He got the original knobs re-plated by a local (Pune) guy. And the difference is Day and Night. Mickey is also changing the top metal plates with fine chrome plated one again sourced from a local Pune guy.

You are immersed and "mesmerized" by the sound, yet it is "thin, loose and less refined". The music's emotion is conveyed with "lush and textured sound", yet "you start noticing the unrefined sound, boosted midrange, lack of body".

Yes, it is the mid range that is mesmerizing. But that was the first impression. But after that the more I listened to it, the more deficiencies started showing up. Whether you agree or not, this amp lacks lower end body, midrange appears boosted and amp still needs some refinements. Cadence VA1 had proved it.

I can understand that for a given price of 36 K you have done the best possible.

But ‘Attention to details’ is also equally important issue. A car may be having the finest engine in the world but what if its wipers are not working, steering has a play, gears are sticky, windows are jammed , whole body is rusted and roof is leaking , head lights are gone?

Many small ,seeming unimportant things need attention, for example::

1>Well polished , good looking , bigger knobs for Volume control and Input Selector
2>Better On-OFF switch that existing Toggle switch.
3>Counter sunk screws
4>Labels/ legends for input / out put connections
5>Proper and readable markings/ legends for input selection.
6>Better markings for Volume control pot.
7>Separating Line out form Input connections
8> Strong and study , better quality foot rests
9>Better looking top metal plates
10>Better speaker terminals.

I don’t know how much it will cost to incorporate these changes but it won’t cost a bomb either.

As a designer / manufacturer you may be having certain priorities and business strategies, I don’t want to argue with it, my review was just an attempt to put forward my observations and concerns. I was mentioning what is to expect from this amp at the given price. For some one it is acceptable while others may not compromise.

SUhas

abhi.pani
Inventar

#17 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 09:11

Arj schrieb:

so that above points are a description of the Amp + Speaker.

Exactly my view...
Moreover Cadence amp (VA1) driving a Cadence speaker (Aritas) should always gel well and come out triumphs!!!!

Even I have heard the VA-1 and its really nice (dont know if its worth the price...I am pretty new to tube world).

But one thing that I have noticed is, low powered tube amps need high sensitive speakers to shine and show what they can do.

Neutral
Stammgast

#18 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 09:21

G_S_Madhav schrieb:

You can post these details in the DIY section for forum members who are planning to build amps.

G_S_Madhav schrieb:

It is very important to listen for a while to get to know a product well. The problem is in hurried (and distracting) sessions at a dealer, it is impossible to hear the finer points until you have already parted with your cash!
Appreciate Viren's providing of a home demo.

G_S_Madhav schrieb:

Many small ,seeming unimportant things need attention, for example::

1>Well polished , good looking , bigger knobs for Volume control and Input Selector
2>Better On-OFF switch that existing Toggle switch.
3>Counter sunk screws
4>Labels/ legends for input / out put connections
5>Proper and readable markings/ legends for input selection.
6>Better markings for Volume control pot.
7>Separating Line out form Input connections
8> Strong and study , better quality foot rests
9>Better looking top metal plates
10>Better speaker terminals.

Wish other Indian manufacturers: Pulz, Sonodyne, Norge, Torvin, Sanen etc would also pay attention to these things. (I remember Sachi calling attention to Sonodyne's shortcomings.) That would give them the edge they deserve over foreign competition. Currently, only 'poorer' audiophiles opt for them.

stevieboy
Stammgast

#19 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 09:40

Arj schrieb:

Neutral schrieb:

hi arj,

some of the points that suhas has heard are true. i have mentioned this to everyone who i come into contact with, even to viren himself and he agreed on certain points - viren's amp might not be the last word in detail in treble, bass control etc, but it conveys more emotion in the music than any other amp i have heard. and that's his patently clear philosophy - to make products that satisfy musically rather than having brilliant individual areas of the music that are absolutely perfect.

to viren's credit he keeps trying to plug the gaps with upgrades. the treble issues i had intitially have been cleared up to a large extent with a recent upgrade. his is not a professional outfit, more of a knowledgeable enthusiast with limited resources at his disposal, so there would be some differences/limitations when you compare with professionally churned out amps. even the huge price gaps

the va1 is almost double the price. whether it is double in performance...?

i have heard the va1 with aritas and while the va1 put out more treble etc, and would please an audiophile, as a whole viren's amp was more involving musically. but that's my opinion, while for others, it might be the other way around.

the va1 is done by the same guys so its voiced perfectly for all cadence speakers. also the output stage is solid state hence more bass control over the speakers. viren's is a pure valve with all the valve shortcomings and these shortcomings would be amplified more (pun intended) with speakers like the aritas.

hence suhas and to all who intend auditioning viren's amp, if i may put in a suggestion, instead of changing the cd players or cables, change the speakers to something like the mordaunt short ms 901 bookshelves which are 90 db. that would make more of a difference i feel.

i wont comment on the looks/ommissions part cos that's a personal call the individual buyer has to take.

regards

a note: i use the older el84 based 15 watt amp not the el 34 amp so i comment from that experience.

[Beitrag von stevieboy am 04. Sep 2007, 09:46 bearbeitet]

stevieboy
Stammgast

#20 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 09:57

oh yes i ought to add this. i listened to the kef iq5s (similar to aritas in sensitivity) with viren's amp and the performance sucked big time! there was a hint of what the amp could do but a lot was not present. i quickly wrapped up the session and ran out after two songs. and this was the first speaker i heard his amp

with the mordaunt short bookshelves, the performance was much better.

i've also heard the canasya with the arcas and the bass seemed to wallow all over the place! part of it was possibly the room but it also seemed to me to be not the most perfect pairing of two quite expensive pieces of equipment. so equipment matching IMO does play a huge role.

square_wave
Inventar

#21 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 10:44

Neutral schrieb:

I have heard Stevie’s amp at my place. I do not agree to most of the points.
I agree that bass definition and slam were not upto the mark with my 91db speakers but that was expected from a low powered tube amplifier. Apart from this, I found the amp to doing a lot of things right. I found the amp to have a very haunting / musical sound which makes you want to listen to music. Hyper detailing in the micro / macro region and hyper resolution are not its strengths but that is not to be expected at this price point.

square_wave
Inventar

#22 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 10:57

stevieboy schrieb:

The iQ 5 and all its brethren especially the older Q series speakers suck current from the amp big time. The older Q7 is the worst example for this. They are prime examples of high advertised sensitivity but difficult to drive speakers. They can make low powered amplifiers sound “ lacking in slam and body “. The denon’s which are paired with them at Pro-fx showrooms with their 45 ampere current capability drives them easily. But they have a very artificial hifi sound to them.
Lesson – Advertised sensitivity will not guarantee easy to drive speakers.

Arj
Inventar

#23 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 11:25

square_wave schrieb:

Lesson – Advertised sensitivity will not guarantee easy to drive speakers.

Sensisitvity by itself means nothing . only with the phase and resistance curves does one get an idea of the power.

eg Dyns have lower sensitivity but are not so difficult to drive as the 84dB will have you believe. similiarly JM labs with their 91dB are not so easy either .

abhi.pani
Inventar

#24 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 11:56

Arj schrieb:

square_wave schrieb:

Lesson – Advertised sensitivity will not guarantee easy to drive speakers.

Especially the Audience series (barring A82)...they are not as diffcult loads as it seems from their specs...the A52 is happily driven by a good 40 watter (capable of good current).

viren
Stammgast

#25 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 18:23

Hi all,

The reason we are arguing about all this goes back to the notion of audiophile hi-fi sound versus musical sound (sound more akin to live unamplified music). We are so used to hyped up hi-fi sound, that anything that sounds natural seems dull and unexciting. Music should not grate on the ears; it should wash over you, immerse you, relax you.

To look at amplifier shortcomings as enumerated by SUhas, and summarized by Neutral makes absolutely no sense. If it were so, the amp would be unlistenable. It is not perfect, but it definitely is listenable.

Viren.

viren
Stammgast

#26 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 18:46

Yes, matching speaker to amp, or vice versa, makes a lot of sense. That's why we should all be pursuing a system's approach to audio systems, to find that synergy between components.

Valve amps have their limitations. They work much better with high sensitivity speakers; and speakers with a reasonably uniform impedance. Low impedance is no problem, as long as that drive condition is designed into the amp. It's a matter of the turns ratio in the output transformer. If a 4-ohm speaker is connected to a valve amp designed for a 8-ohm load, the impedance reflected to the valves will be way off. Power transfer will suffer, and damping will decrease.

Stevieboy, in his earlier post, has described the limitations and strengths of my valve amps very well. He, of course, was referring to the lower powered Integre Two amp. The amp under review, the Integre One, is a much more powerful, more refined amp.

Viren.

[Beitrag von viren am 04. Sep 2007, 18:49 bearbeitet]

viren
Stammgast

#27 erstellt: 04. Sep 2007, 19:07

Arj,

You had asked about the voicing of my amps.

The voicing is all done by listening to music, in conjunction, of course, with various speakers. Most of it is with my own Harmony One speakers.

Tonal balance comes first. Speakers are much more coloured than amps here, so it helps to have a reference. That, for me, is the Rogers Studio One speakers, which I have owned for well over twenty years. The Studio Ones were used by the BBC for studio monitoring, and are about the most tonally neutral speakers that I have heard.

Beyond that, you have to have a certain sensibility to music, to be able to design good sounding equipment. That comes from a lifetime of listening to live music, most of it unamplified. To be able to create some of that charge, that emotion, in your home, is the real challenge!

Viren.

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#28 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 05:02

stevieboy schrieb:

oh yes i ought to add this. i listened to the kef iq5s (similar to aritas in sensitivity) with viren's amp and the performance sucked big time!

That comes as no surprise to me..i have not heard the iQ5, but the Q5 and the Q7 are IMHO bad speakers.

[Beitrag von Savyasaachi am 05. Sep 2007, 05:02 bearbeitet]

Neutral
Stammgast

#29 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 09:22

viren schrieb:

It would be nice if valve amp manufacturers stated the impedance for which their amps are designed. And maybe offer to change this for a fee if the client decides to upgrade their speakers. Incompatibilities cause a lot of heartburn. As Viren says, speaker tonal imbalances are likely to be higher than those of amps.

Viren, when you say high-sensitivity speakers, have you ever tested the Integre with horns. Or is that a popular misconception that valve amps sound best with horns?

Neutral
Stammgast

#30 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 09:33

viren schrieb:

To look at amplifier shortcomings as enumerated by SUhas, and summarized by Neutral makes absolutely no sense. If it were so, the amp would be unlistenable. It is not perfect, but it definitely is listenable.Viren.

Hi Viren,
The customer is always right.

He just wrote what he felt and I summarised it for the benefit of forum members. Please take forum members' views in a positive spirit. This feedback enables Indian manufacturers to improve their products.

Everyone is looking for different things from hifi. 'Absolutely no sense' is too strong a term to use considering the variety of backgrounds and musical preferences. Maybe the pairing of amp and speaker was wrong, but definitely not Suhas' opinions, which he took great trouble to express!

viren
Stammgast

#31 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 10:27

Neutral,

Sorry about the strong statement, but you misunderstand me as well.

I have nothing against opinions; every person has that privilege. It's the methodology of reviewing that I don't agree with. You can't dissect music and examine it's bits. If you do that, you aren't listening to music anymore, so what are you evaluating?

Viren.

bharathana
Ist häufiger hier

#32 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 10:30

Neutral schrieb:

viren schrieb:

Hi Viren,
The customer is always right.

Completely second Neutral's thought. Yes, true as much as it may sound trivial, superficial to you as the manufacturer (given that you exactly know why you decided on certain things, concentrate on the sound to the external build), they have to be given careful consideration. Remember the thoughts are from your prospect customer, extrapolated could be your customer base.
Viren, we do understand how much effort, labour and love you have put in to the amp. IMHO, it is now upto you to measure the feature changes / modifications as requested by your prospects to incorporate in a separate brand line maybe, by weighing it with the cost of manufacturing such a thing versus how many such buckets of customer you find (like madhav) to justify the cost.
I would think this would be you most valued post given that your lead users are coming up with suggestions on features of your products. Would make for an interesting new product strategy case

Cheers and didnt mean any offence here.

bhagwan69
Inventar

#33 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 10:45

viren schrieb:

Neutral,

Sorry about the strong statement, but you misunderstand me as well.

Viren.

Hello Viren !

I have not been following this thread.

However, I just would like to request you to spare some of your precious time - next week. I will be visiting ND on my way to Amritsar. I would like to listen to your products [apeakers & amplifiers] and spend some time with you and other forum members [doc & kamal].

I sure hope it gets to be possible.

I look forward to meeting all of you.

Thanks !!

stevieboy
Stammgast

#34 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 12:49

bharathana schrieb:

Neutral schrieb:

viren schrieb:

Hi Viren,
The customer is always right.

Cheers and didnt mean any offence here.

hi bharthana,

to be honest, while suhas's observations were very detailed and i agree with some of them, the basic flaw was the pairing of speakers. hence to my mind, suggestions for improvement to the sound quality based on only that audition would be cause for question. as to his other requests for physical changes, well that's viren's call.

as an owner of viren's equipment i'd like to add here that he comes up with upgrades on his own and charges are either zilch or minimal. zilch for me so far. now which manufacturer would retro-fit upgrades without charging a bomb? none that i know of!

also the fact that he comes up with upgrades indicates he himself is aware that his products have certain areas in which they need to improve. the only difference is he might not have the resources and deep pockets a big company has so it's bound to take time.

hi viren,

on a personal note though, looks do play a major role today for most buyers so perhaps custom making changes if possible depending on your priorities and resources, would get you more buyers. and these could be charged of course to the customer over and above your usual standard product.

i'm afraid your products will never be mainstream or find many takers because almost all 'audiophiles' today listen to music dissected. they're not listening to music. they're listening to fluid midranges, airy treble, tight bass etc and that's a pity because which music reviewer having heard a concert, either classical or rock, goes back and writes "the bass was tight, but the midrange recessed. the treble was airy though, and soundstaging though good, lacked that provided by the very best"

also how many self acclaimed 'audiophiles' have played an instrument of have heard a musical instrument for years together to get a fix on how real instruments should sound? not just one off concerts here and there? sure recording changes the sound but if you havent been exposed to the real thing you wont even know where to being setting your reference points! yet these same audiophiles when hearing an instrument through speakers will instantly claim a certain lack of something or praise some audiophile attribute

regards

stevieboy
Stammgast

#35 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 14:04

in order to prevent another long fruitless debate let me add some more.

if someone likes dissecting music so be it. i dont think that's the way music ought to be listened to and that's a personal opinion i'm expressing. in no way do i want to change anyone's way of listening through a war of words nor do i want to change the world. peace.

G_S_Madhav
Stammgast

#36 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 14:48

stevieboy schrieb:

I think the whole purpose of ‘Reviewing or Auditioning’ process is being ignored here. When products like CDP, Amp or speaker are reviewed it is inevitable to dissect the music / performance in order to put forward the pluses and minuses of the product under consideration. . When I was listening to Lyrita, I was in the role of prospective buyer and not as a proud owner of the said product so that dissecting aspect has to be there in order to evaluate the performance, I did the same with Cadence VA1, Cayin, NAD, Cyrus and many others. But once I own the chosen product I no loner need that dissecting and won’t be doing during every listening session.

By the way I am trained in Indian Classical music by Pt Arvind Gajendragadkar and I do attend most live performances happening in and around Pune.

SUhas

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#37 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 16:10

I am going to stick my neck out & state that I found Suhas' review Informative and a good read.

I believe that a Reviewer MUST focus on various aspects of the item under review... and state points that he liked or did not like.

The reader is then in a position to make his own informed decision on whether those aspect matter to the reader or not, and therefore to concur with the reviewer's conclusion or not.

Suhas, please do not let feedback from the forum discourage future posts.

We all await your reactions to other products, and would love to join in if I have experienced the product.

Cheers !

viren
Stammgast

#38 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 16:15

Steve,

Thanks.

Methinks I need to chill out too!

A tumbler with Old Monk, couple of ice cubes, turn on the Integre One, and listen to Ella sing her heart out!

By the way, one and all of you are welcome, including you, bhagwan69, to come over and listen for yourselves. There's always time for music here!

Good spirits,
Viren.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#39 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 16:22

i'm afraid your products will never be mainstream or find many takers because almost all 'audiophiles' today listen to music dissected. they're not listening to music. they're listening to fluid midranges, airy treble, tight bass etc and that's a pity because which music reviewer having heard a concert, either classical or rock, goes back and writes "the bass was tight, but the midrange recessed. the treble was airy though, and soundstaging though good, lacked that provided by the very best"

also how many self acclaimed 'audiophiles' have played an instrument of have heard a musical instrument for years together to get a fix on how real instruments should sound? not just one off concerts here and there? sure recording changes the sound but if you havent been exposed to the real thing you wont even know where to being setting your reference points! yet these same audiophiles when hearing an instrument through speakers will instantly claim a certain lack of something or praise some audiophile attribute

Steve Bhai,
First of all I would request you to tone down a bit on this aspect because its not fair to claim that only you listen to music and others are bullshitting here

. Please pay some respect to the common hobby we all are following!!
Its good to know that you are happy with your system and enjoying music the way you want but please don't condemn others (way of listening music) for the sake of proving it..please

!!

Anyway, I do have a point or two to write down on this topic "dissecting the music".
Let me first make it clear that I have been exposed to live instruments (unamplified) many a times (being a part of college band) and I know and love their sound.
But yes, I didnt own any hifi equipments then so comparison was not possible.

After listening to hifi in the last couple of years and also listening to live music 3-4 times during this period, I have safely concluded that they are two different things. I have wrote about this in another thread as well. The magic of live is not possible at home...you cant even imitate a single solo instrument performance (say an accordion) at our home even with the best of the recordings forget about imitating the whole orchestra IMO

.
So trying to do it is only gonna make you unhappy.
For me they are two different forms of entertainment..thats all

As for dissecting the music..yes its true that you dont do it while listening to live performance..its a magic!!
While listening to home audio it has happened with me 3 times...to be precise. The magic was not the same as live (it cannot be) but I was not able to dissect the music..thats true.
Surprisingly all the three times, I was listening to LPs. The LP players were different so was the rest of the system each time and also were the LPs...but each time I was never allowed to dissect music...it was just music.

To make things clear, let me write down the systems I was listening at these occasions:

1. Technics LP Player
Denon PMA-2000 Int Amp
Kef Q7 speakers
Music: Mostly RD Burman recordings

2. Linn LP-12 Player
Aragon Power amp
Jeff Rowland Pre-amp
Proac Response 1SC
Music: Santana, Pop, Jazz...quite a few

3. Sonodyne LP Player (some old model)
Marantz PM-17 Int amp
Sennheiser HD-650 Headphone
Music: 80s Bollywood

If you notice, each time the systems are quite different from each other and so were the music played but still the involvement was just as intense. There is no way I can describe you the sound of these LPs that I have heard because I never could note them...I was only listening to music.

The point here is...if the music reproduced is such that it doesnt allow you dissect music then you would only listen to music else you would be doing both. For me it was the media (LPs) which created the magic...on the same systems when we put some CDs, it was all back to square one (not square_wave

). Even the most well recorded CDs hasnt done it for me..so why blame the speakers or the amp or even the listener ??? I am sure, even with an entry level amp and speaker, LPs can do it again for me.
My next budget would be for an LP player...

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#40 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 18:48

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Same here. I have not read reviews of such quality on this forum before and it actually is better than some reviews i read on most audio magazines/websites.

Good job Suhas and keep those posts coming.

[Beitrag von Savyasaachi am 05. Sep 2007, 21:07 bearbeitet]

Neutral
Stammgast

#41 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 19:40

viren schrieb:

Neutral,
Sorry about the strong statement, but you misunderstand me as well.
Viren.

No misunderstanding, Viren.

I will be most honoured if you will invite me over to listen to your amps and speakers when I vist your hometown {Delhi right?}. Would certainly like to check out the magic of valves and crossover-less speakers.

BTW, which Ella are you listening to - I especially like the Cole Porter songbook.

Steve and Abhi Pani,
I am listening to Diana Krall - The Girl in the Other Room on 25-yr old speakers and I only hear the music. It takes a great artiste to draw you into the music. Natural sound is what matters, but to explain things to someone else, you got to analyse. If I just told you my speakers sound 'natural', would you be satisfied? You would surely question me on the bass, speed, air, tonality, soundstage, chestiness, nasality, and god knows what all! It's just human nature! So to write a post on this forum, I have to stop listening to the 'music' and start listening to all those silly things I just mentioned.

Steve,
Most audiophiles do attend live shows and know what real instruments sound like. It's our hobby, we damn well need to know these things. For eg, I often hear both a piano and a guitar playing at my home. I will also be attending an unamplified show on the 15th. Only noobs to this hobby may be an exception.

Kamal
Stammgast

#42 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 19:48

I have responded once to Suhas's review;reading other responses & the way the arguments have gone has left me feeling a bit uneasy, hence I would like to put in my tuppences' worth.
Suhas & I have been PMing each other regularly and I have admired the methodical way in which he is going abt building his system.
Suhas has all the right in the world to form his own opinion, & he has tried to present a review listing both the pros & cons of the Lyrita Amp, even if some of his statements appear a bit contradictory; e.g how can the sound be "clean, natural, relaxed" & yet be "less refined" at the same time? How can it be "luxurious" & "thin " at the same time?
He has listed out Nits in detail by the way of perceived defects in F&F,lack of labelling, defects in layout, - Ok, as a prospective buyer, he has all the right in the world to attach a degree of weightage which he feels right to him.However, this not the be all & end all of a component as he himself acknowledges.
Apart from the apparent contradictions which I have mentioned above,what has disturbed me is the presumption to draw conclusions & render improvement advice ON THE BASIS OF PAIRING WITH JUST ONE PAIR OF SPEAKERS!
If he had just stated that the Lyrita amp did not sound as good as the Cadence VA1 when paired with the Cadence Aritas, I would have nothing to say,but conclusions & advice in this manner are not really valid , in my humble opinion.
What Neutral then did was far worse-he summarised, "for the benefit of the forum members", in his own words, only and only the shortcomings mentioned by Suhas in his review!
Is this a benefit to anyone?
If anyone else also looking to buy an amp were to read this "summary" would he not be put off from considering Lyritas amp altogether? Is this fair? I at least don't think so-
Suhas at least tried to mention the qualities of the Lyrita Amp which appealed to him, but Neutrals post really takes the cake!
In the end, I would like to emphasize that the review is ONE PERSONS' OPINION,& since it is based on a pairing with only one pair of speakers,it should not be taken as universally valid.
I have listened to the Lyrita Amp/Harmony Spkrs many times, with a wide variety of music & it has always given me musical enjoyment, made me connect to the emotion of the music-is that not as equally a valid an opinion?
We all have the right to carry out any amt of auditioning to select a system for ourselves but let us be careful & fair while airing our views in public space like the Forum.
And people like Suhas who can write such professional quality reviews need to be especially careful to also highlight the limitations in the reviewing methodology!

[Beitrag von Kamal am 05. Sep 2007, 20:38 bearbeitet]

panditr
Ist häufiger hier

#43 erstellt: 05. Sep 2007, 21:02

regards[/quote]

Stevieboy, you could'nt have said it better...'Audiophiles' please don't beat him up since he just said the truth and you sure as hell don't like it....

Arj
Inventar

#44 erstellt: 06. Sep 2007, 04:13

lets not get into a redefinition of who an audiophile is.

if audiophiles had to be musicians there may only be a couple in the whole wide world !

we had been down this exact same discussion a year or so back and obviously no conclusions as there will not be in this..and the jury is put on other forums as well !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophile

the above article just about shows the "Dispute"

stevieboy
Stammgast

#45 erstellt: 06. Sep 2007, 08:33

this is a discussion that wont win any converts to either side, but what i put forth was my point of view.

abhi,

it's my point of view and if you dissect music that's certainly your prerogative. so if you believe in your method do post explaining a little instead of getting affronted which is absolutely not my aim buddy.

i dont know where you get the condemning aspect from

you pretty much agree in your own post that you listen to live music but evaluate audio equipment differently. which is exactly what i'm pointing out! so why so taking it so personally? you say that when listening to the LP equipment you were listening 'There is no way I can describe you the sound of these LPs that I have heard because I never could note them...I was only listening to music.' now my argument is shouldn't this be the ideal to aim for?

chill buddy lets meet at siva's on sat and listen to some music

we can beat each other up then

what i'm questioning is why audiophiles the world over have different parameters for grading audio equipment and grading a musical performance? to my mind a good musical performance is subjective and audio manufacturers and reviewers have latched on to some easily quantifiable qualities like bass treble etc. which is a good marketing ploy IMO since one can then easily assign stars to such definable parameters. even you abhi agree that judging music is different from judging audio equipment and that's the essence of my questioning post! not to say you're dumb and i'm smart or i'm right. the question is why is it so? isn't it illogical to break music down into those small parts when one does not do it when listening to music?

suhas,

as a professional musician am sure you would agree that your teacher in training and evaluating your performance certainly did not use the terms audiophiles use while evaluating equipment. he would have probably said things like your instrument is not tuned to the proper pitch, your timing is off, hold on to that note longer, put a little more feeling into that piece etc... musical terms in what i'm getting at.

so i'm asking all those who fall into the audiophile camp who evaluate equipment by dissection to shed some light on this instead of getting all affronted?

ampnut i too agree suhas' posts are very well detailed. cheers to that! even his sell post was i think the best sell post so far! so there's no question of his posts not being welcome at all. a debate with someone who posts are so detailed would be fruitful i think.

like arj says there will never be a conclusion but how bout putting your point of view forth? i dont think the current way of evaluating equipment makes sense, can anyone who feels otherwise explain a little?

this quote from the manual for the sumiko blackbird mc cartridge sums up my philosophy perfectly. it is describing setting the vta.
"remember, the time domain will not lie and the ear is sensitive to time arrival cues, whereas trying to guess whether a piece of program material has too much or too little bass for example is an exercise in madness. when vta is right, the sound will take on a properly large image scale (not bloated, simply full in size) with an easy 'breath' to the music that emulates the natural ebb and flow of live music"

this, to me is the right way to judge how a piece of equipment is performing. and this abhi is what you heard and loved.

why is it that my post ruffled so many feathers with so many people rushing to claim that they do indeed listen to music live? and presume that i meant i'm the only one who does?

the point i'm making and that you are missing is why is it that you have double standards for evaluating both? abhi if most of the equipment you've heard so far is not coming close to creating that feel of good music its bad equipment! even if it has perfect treble, tight bass and the most seductive midrange! that's my argument.

regards

stevieboy
Stammgast

#46 erstellt: 06. Sep 2007, 09:16

abhi.pani schrieb:

After listening to hifi in the last couple of years and also listening to live music 3-4 times during this period, I have safely concluded that they are two different things.

this to me is a sad state of affairs. if hifi today or anytime in its history has not come close to giving a listener the rush.. the feeling of listening to music, it's failing in its job IMO. and that's also why i feel most manufacturers have come up with easier parameters for judging equipment which they know their equipment can match up to and listeners can identify easily. and now these are the defacto standards for judging equipment. am sure audiophiles everywhere will disagree, to me its one big and smartly done con job.

it's the same i feel with formats like LPs and cds. cds are the de facto standard today. but is the de facto standard a step forward or the gold measure in all areas of music reproduction?... debatable right?

regards

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#47 erstellt: 06. Sep 2007, 09:33

I agree with both of you.

When it comes to buying something for me, the equipment has to involve me, surround me and dissolve my consciousness in the music.
However, when i want to dissect a particular piece of music(instrument) from the song/track, it should be capable of doing so.
One that does both is rare(read friggin expensive) to find and I end up striking a balance between the two.

I agree with Abhi that listening live and to hi-fi are two completely different things and thinking of even equating the two is IMO foolhardy and usually done by the ill informed/newbies who read a lot of audiophilia. This can be a huge thread by itself(so lets not discuss it in this one)

.

Stevie, you now know why i refrain from extolling the sound quality of audio devices using audiophile terms.

I feel we might be digressing a bit from the topic. Hope the thread didn't get highjacked.

Saachi

[Beitrag von Savyasaachi am 06. Sep 2007, 09:34 bearbeitet]

stevieboy
Stammgast

#48 erstellt: 06. Sep 2007, 09:37

[quote="panditr"]i'm afraid your products will never be mainstream or find many takers because almost all 'audiophiles' today listen to music dissected. they're not listening to music. they're listening to fluid midranges, airy treble, tight bass etc and that's a pity because which music reviewer having heard a concert, either classical or rock, goes back and writes "the bass was tight, but the midrange recessed. the treble was airy though, and soundstaging though good, lacked that provided by the very best"

regards[/quote]

Stevieboy, you could'nt have said it better...'Audiophiles' please don't beat him up since he just said the truth and you sure as hell don't like it....[/quote]

panditr,

your sign off line perfectly captures my thoughts! i feel that unfortunately the so called 'upgrade itch' is because most listeners in the world today IMO have set the wrong criteria for listening and that's where after a while the system seems to fall down and they go chasing after more treble, tighter bass etc... after all, how much bass is enough? as the sumiko blackbird manual says 'that's an exercise in madness'. its an opinion i strongly subscribe to.

i remember checking out a power cord some months back. compared to my existing power cord, it increased the bass, and the sound seemed to be more forceful, but with the existing powercord i could almost see the bass guy plucking out notes which was missing in the more forceful presentation. so more bass or a bass player plucking notes with his fingers and not a plectrum?i guess each presentation will find it's takers.

i remember a debate some time back on worldspace and some of the members here would not consider worldspace because of the low quality of the stream instead of enjoying the diverse channels and music they would not have got to listen to anywhere else or even buy here in india.

so i guess there will always be those for whom technical prowess is more important and those for whom artistry is more important. unfortunately to date no one piece of equipment has managed to capture both. hence one is forced to choose from either, depending on one's priorities. i'm happy to be in the minority group and i guess you are too so

regards

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#49 erstellt: 06. Sep 2007, 09:45

i'm happy to be in the minority group and i guess you are too so

One here too! Enjoy music first.

. Connect to music and not itch yourself with too much proiority by splitting nuances.

stevieboy
Stammgast

#50 erstellt: 06. Sep 2007, 09:50

Savyasaachi schrieb:

However, when i want to dissect a particular piece of music(instrument) from the song/track, it should be capable of doing so.

Saachi

hi saachi,

i think a more suitable word than dissection in the context of the above section would be discern. if that's your meaning yes! one ought to be able to discern the various instruments from each other. to me that's the essence of music. each instrument merges into a glorious whole but if you want to follow a particular instrument you still can.

the dissection i'm not in favour of is how much or how little bass, treble etc... those to me are not the right parameters for judging equipment. IMO etc etc...

i agree with you. i dont think audio equipment can be a subsitute for live music. an instrument played and the sound travelling through air to your ears and recreated through a driver will never be the same. but a well designed system ought to recreate that 'rush' dont you think? exactly what abhi felt when he heard those systems with LPs.

regards

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#51 erstellt: 06. Sep 2007, 09:50

we wouldn't have this passion if we didn't enjoy music...so please don't have any such illusions that those who do dissect music don't appreciate music.

I sometimes concentrate on only one instrument and follow it through an entire song simply because i find it intriguing, fascinating. Basically, i split it up cause i may like that instrument/s in that particular song, the way it is being played, its contribution to making that song special for me.