Siltech Pantheon

What did yiou think of the ARC Ref-3 ?

Good Pre Amplifier.
Cannot comment on its individual performance - sorry.

I understand that its difficult ( probably impossible) to atribute characteristics to one particular component in a totally unknown system, ( even thought its an approx Rs 2 Crore System ! )....

Yes; This is a 'top end' set up !!

Was it different from the traditional LUSH ARC house sound ?

Same answer - sorry - cannot comment on a particular component.

Also, from the physical position of the Ref-3, wasn't the left power amp blocking the path to the REF-3 for the remote control ?

All the remotes worked perfectly.

CD Player + Pre Amplifier + Phono Stage.

This is a lovely set up - I really liked the sound.



Cadence - Well Done !!

Amp_Nut schrieb:

switch-it-on could you please post your impressions too ?

yes, Switch-it-on, could you please post your comments? Thanks!

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Also, a question to Both: Bhagwan & S-I-O What did yiou think of the ARC Ref-3 ?

altho' this question is not addressed to me, maybe I can answer it all-the-same as I have a friend who owns a Ref3 (his CDP is a Marantz SA-1S2 (I think that I have the model # correct), the Symphonic Line Kraft 250 power amp & B&W 802D speakers - those diamond tweeter wallas).
The Ref 3 is a very nice preamp in that even an ARC disbeliever like me liked the sound! It is far more neutral than, say, the vintage SP-6A or Ref 1 (that other friends have). In my friend's particular application since the Kraft 250 is a single-ended amp, the Ref 3 HAS to be used in s.e. mode thereby yielding just 6dB (half of balanced) of gain. Thus, extension at both freq extremes is compromised. This is not an issue w/ the Ref3 but the application. I believe that ARC intended the Ref3 to be used in balanced mode only. Hence it important to understand this & use this preamp in the intended fashion. Hence the overall sound might have been slightly compromised. We also noted that there was some bass overhang & that the preamp-amp combination was not able to totally wrestle the twin woofers of the 802D to the ground. We believe that this is due to the impedance mismatch - the Ref 3 has 600 Ohms o/p impedance while the Kraft 250 has a 10K Ohm input impedance. My friend very much likes the Kraft 250 power amp so he is going to keep this power amp hence he needs a preamp w/ a 100 Ohm o/p impedance.
OTOH, I had heard the Ref3 at RMAF07 in an all-ARC setup driving Apogee Duetta Signature speakers. That all-ARC sound was totally mind-blowing. The amp was an ARC HT220 & all connections were balanced. SO, the Ref3 was a totally different animal.
The Ref 3 IMHO is a better preamp compared to the older Ref1 or SP-6A in that it has more neutrality - no lush ARC sound here. However it is to be used only in balanced mode.
Hope that this helps.

The Ref 3 IMHO is a better preamp compared to the older Ref1 or SP-6A in that it has more neutrality - no lush ARC sound here. However it is to be used only in balanced mode.

I am sure our observations are well researched;
However, in Pune the ARC Ref 3 is bing used in an unbalanced set up. The Cadence Canasya is Un-Balanced !!

bhagwan69 schrieb:

The Ref 3 IMHO is a better preamp compared to the older Ref1 or SP-6A in that it has more neutrality - no lush ARC sound here. However it is to be used only in balanced mode. I am sure our observations are well researched; However, in Pune the ARC Ref 3 is bing used in an unbalanced set up. The Cadence Canasya is Un-Balanced !!

Bhagwan69,
I should have worded my sentence better
I should have written that the Ref3 is best sounding in balanced mode.
It sure is a very nice preamp even in single-ended operation but (to my ears) the best sonics are when used balanced. Of course, this is my opinion. FWIW.

Hi Bombaywalla,

Nice to read your detailed post... particularly so since Both the 802Ds and the Ref-3 are on my fantacy shopping list

That Bass problem is probably the infamouse mid bass hump of the 802Ds, probably compounded by the room.

Yes, the 800 Ohm output impedence is probably best suited with Valve power amps which have High ( >100K ) imput impedance.

However, can you please explain :

the Ref 3 HAS to be used in s.e. mode thereby yielding just 6dB (half of balanced) of gain. Thus, extension at both freq extremes is compromised.

I dont understand.

Thanks.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hi Bombaywalla, Nice to read your detailed post... particularly so since Both the 802Ds and the Ref-3 are on my fantacy shopping list

heh, heh, heh!

Amp_Nut schrieb:

That Bass problem is probably the infamouse mid bass hump of the 802Ds, probably compounded by the room.

from my past ownership of B&W I'd say that you are probably correct!

Amp_Nut schrieb:

However, can you please explain : the Ref 3 HAS to be used in s.e. mode thereby yielding just 6dB (half of balanced) of gain. Thus, extension at both freq extremes is compromised. I dont understand. Thanks.

And,probably for a good reason!! The 1st part of the sentence does not imply the 2nd part. My bad - I wrote all my thoughts but in a jumbled fashion.
The o/p impedance of 600 Ohms input to the 10K Ohms power amp is what is causing the extremes roll-off.
The use of this preamp in s.e. mode thereby yielding just 6dB gain is what is resulting in a less dynamic sonic presentation.
As I wrote in a reply to Bhagwan69, I would change my above words to say that the Ref3 is best used in balanced mode. I believe that one gets the best from this preamp as originally intended by the manuf.

Bombaywalla... sorry but I GENUINELY dont intend to pick on words, but could you please elaborate on :

The use of this preamp in s.e. mode thereby yielding just 6dB gain is what is resulting in a less dynamic sonic presentation.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Bombaywalla... sorry but I GENUINELY dont intend to pick on words, but could you please elaborate on : The use of this preamp in s.e. mode thereby yielding just 6dB gain is what is resulting in a less dynamic sonic presentation.

Amp_Nut, what's happening here is that the music thru the Ref3 (in my friend's system) seems to have less body & dynamics when compared to 2 other preamps - his passive pre & the Symphonic Line tube pre called the Erleuchtung. My friend had all 3 in his system at the same time - he rotated them in & out 1-by-1. He also noted that the shimmer from the cymbals was sort of dull - lacking that brassy/metallic sound. ALso noted that the female vocals were not seductive enough. All this thru the Ref3 compared to the other 2 preamps.
So, tried to correlate these short-comings thru the Ref3 by actually measuring the signal at the amp o/p terminals (the speaker binding posts). He set the volume knob on each preamp such that he got the same amplitude of signal o/p from the preamp o/p RCA jacks (this friend is a DIYer & has quite a bit of audio measurement equipment on his bench). Then played the same CD track thru each preamp in turn & measured the signal amplitude at the amp o/p. What he found was that the Ref3 put out less amplitude signal than the Symphonic Line preamp.
The Erleuchtung had 15dB of gain while the Ref3 had just 6dB in s.e. mode. Additionally the 10K-Ohm i/p impedance of the power amp could have further loaded down the Ref3 o/p stage. So, double whammy for the Ref3.
All this makes sense particular since the Ref3 had less gain thereby yielded a smaller amplitude signal. However, that is the point I was trying to make.
This hurt the overall dynamics & tonality of the sound thru the Ref3 in s.e. mode.

The point that missed all 3 of us was [until it dawned on me] that the only piece of equipment from 'India' was that 845 based tube amplifier. Now if a person was to spare no effort and went for an 'all out assault' then if the 'tube power amplifier' was not up to 'spec' [mark] it would not have been used. I am sure Cadence would not like to see [hear] a 'compromise' in the end result while playing a 75 K Euro speaker - would they ?

p.s. There was 1 more component in that chain from India - the ESL Panel from all Cadence Speakers.



All said - the set up sounded lovely. I really liked it. How I wish our 'Moderator' would fix up a visit for our forum members to go to Pune & experiance what I heard. It may surely be a 'corner stone' of one of the 'best' set ups that any of us may ever have a chance to experiance !!!

Please - all make that effort - it has to be experianced - just to realise how much more there can be done........
[rather - what more can be achived from an audio set up !!]

Bombaywalla, wouldn't the passive have the least gain of the 3 pre-amps ?

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Bombaywalla, wouldn't the passive have the least gain of the 3 pre-amps ?

correct, Amp_Nut, the passive had the least gain of the 3 & between the 2 actives, the Ref3 had less.

Bhagwan69,
I am sure that the setup in Poona was as great as you wrote in your post. I'm sure that the Ref3 performed admirably in that setup & I'm not trying to take anything away from it.
I was merely discussing the observations that I/we noticed in my friend's system that also uses a Ref3 wherein the input imp. of the power amp has become an issue & the Ref3 does seem to be sensitive to it (as per the ARC website). In the Canasya's case, this might not be an issue at all.
So, hopefully I've not taken anything away from the Ref3 or the 2-ch setup in Poona. Apologies if I did.

Hi Bombaywalla,

In fact I appreciate critical reviews / feedback.

The web is always full of Wow, Wow reviews and the Masnufacturer's website will always put up Only the Great reviews..

Its these personal experiences ( Critical or otherwise ) that hold the most meaning for me...

So, hopefully I've not taken anything away from the Ref3 or the 2-ch setup in Poona. Apologies if I did.

I have no idea or any opinion on / about the AR Ref 3. It was a part of a 'chain'

Too many parameteres were variable for me to know if it is 'good / bad / ugly' pre amplifier......

All said, I liked the Pune set up !

I just wish more forum members would 'listen to it' !!

http://www.element-acoustics.ca/Product/siltech.html

Cables used in the set up :-

Interconnects
1.0 M
1.5 M
+/- 0.5M

Princess
$ 4,340
$ 5,920
$ 1,580

Queen
$ 7,550
$ 10,710
$ 3,160

Empress
$ 11,220
$ 16,140
$ 4,920

Empress Crown
$ 17,550
$ 24,570
$ 7,020

RCA or XLR


Phone Cable
1.0 M
1.5 M
+/- 0.5 M

Avondale II
$ 4,340
$ 5,920
$ 1,580

Empress Crown
$ 18,470
$ 25,480
$ 7,020

Straight or Angled DIN (Tac 5) or Siltech SST


Speaker Cable
1.0 M
2.0 M
+/- 0.5 M

Prince
$ 6,690
$ 10,560
$ 1,940

King
$ 10,380
$ 17,400
$ 3,520

Emperor II
$ 15,810
$ 28,460
$ 6,330

Emperor Crown
$ 20,400
$ 37,950
$ 8,780

SPO-005 Spades or WBT-0600 Bananas / Jumper available
Bi-wire speaker cables also available


Power Cable
1.0 M
1.5 M
+/- 1.0 M

Ruby Hill II
$ 2,120
$ 2,830
$ 1,430

Ruby Mountain II
$ 5,280
$ 7,140
$ 3,730

US IEC 15 or 20 AMP


Digital Cable
1.0 M
1.5 M
+/- 1.0 M

Golden Ridge II
$ 2,120
$ 2,910
$ 1,580

Golden Eagle II
$ 4,240
$ 5,560
$ 2,650

Siltech SST, BNC, or XLR termination

[sorry if the columns get messed up !!]

Not to worry bhagwan........the numbers are exciting enough!

Jeeves schrieb:

Not to worry bhagwan........the numbers are exciting enough!

Not just exciting... they are downright scary :KR.

I concur -

These cables cost a lot of money.

All the Royal Signature's [G-7] are 'mad' in their prices.

Speaker cable costing $ 37,950

These guys must be making a lot of money

I seriousely doubt the sanity of anyone buying that though

Are these made of extruded diamond and coated with blue fairy dust while the comets and asteroids were at a certain favorable position which occurs only once in 25 years?
What a scam

square_wave schrieb:

Speaker cable costing $ 37,950 What a scam :cut

It sure appears so;

38/- K for a speaker cable is a lot of money.
I wonder what a full G-7 Royal Signature cable set from Power Cord to Speaker Cable will cost ?

About the cost of hiring Pink floyd for the weekend bash in the garden.

Siltech speaker in Taiwan - Taipei Audio Show.
7th to 10th August, 2008.
Took part with Halcro.



<a href="http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=27442166469fd240889bbaw5.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/9982/27442166469fd240889bbaw5.th.jpg" border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us" /></a><br /><br /><a href="http://img604.imageshack.us/content.php?page=blogpost&files=img370/9982/27442166469fd240889bbaw5.jpg" title="QuickPost"><img src="http://imageshack.us/img/butansn.png" alt="QuickPost" border="0"></a> Quickpost this image to Myspace, Digg, Facebook, and others!

I somehow do not like the look of thse speakers. For this kind of money, they could have done a far better job. Cadence always had this traditional, understated, classy look which I liked. This is quite a departure
I am sure it sounds great

square_wave schrieb:

I somehow do not like the look of thse speakers. For this kind of money, they could have done a far better job. Cadence always had this traditional, understated, classy look which I liked. This is quite a departure I am sure it sounds great ;)

I can imagine that they were designed with an eye on the US-market where they would very well match from the looks with the present Krell, Pass (the Alephs had a great look but IMHO ) and other typical american amps

Krell, Pass (the Alephs had a great look but IMHO ) and other typical american amps

Here they came with Halcro's & dcS front end;;;;

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Krell, Pass (the Alephs had a great look but IMHO ) and other typical american amps Here they came with Halcro's & dcS front end;;;;

Great match from the looks I must admit. But not something which I would like to have in my living- or listening room.

Should we start a new thread "Most Beautiful HiFi Gear"?

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Krell, Pass (the Alephs had a great look but IMHO ) and other typical american amps Here they came with Halcro's & dcS front end;;;;

I like the design of the halcro. There is a certain " organic beauty" to the design.
Everything else looks too " industrial" to me.

Nice to see they addressed the side-wall acoustics in this exhibit !

audio_engr schrieb:

Nice to see they addressed the side-wall acoustics in this exhibit !

This is the 'most serious' Audio Show in Asia & maybe in the world.

It is a 'must visit' !!!

All the rooms are 'very well' appointed & all the public that visits is extremly serious about audio & that too 2 channel only. Less than 5 % HT @ this show.

"Speaker cable costing $ 37,950

What a scam"

How would you know? Try putting it between a NAD CD player and amp and let them work their magic. You dont need a music system anymore..
Purnendu

purnendu schrieb:

"Speaker cable costing $ 37,950 What a scam" How would you know? Try putting it between a NAD CD player and amp and let them work their magic. You dont need a music system anymore.. Purnendu

Is it a scam ?

I am not so sure;
I have 'heard' the power cable make a 'huge' differance.

The problem here - sir - is that the 'rest of the chain' needs to be in a position to 'resolve' & 'show' the change;
This I am afraid, the NAD cannot do.

Put that Siltech - G7 cable into a set up that has the potential to 'show' you the differance & you might just be amazed !!!!

I cannot justify the price - no way, but a differance sure exists !!!

purnendu schrieb:

"Speaker cable costing $ 37,950 What a scam" Purnendu

I think it's not such a scam. It's approx. one third of the price of the speakers.
I always recommend to my customers to spend approx. 20% to 25% of the price for the component for the cables only. I think it's reasonable and justified....but such a cable between an NAD and a China box doesn't make sense at all. You will not hear a difference between the Emperor Crown and a cable that I would recommend for this NAD-China combo.