What is wrong with my system(NAD C320BEE & EROS MK11).

The crossover is as follows:

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3498/eroscrossoverqz1.jpg

Pics of my system:

http://img479.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1478ay3.jpg




http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1479ol8.jpg



http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1480jw8.jpg



http://img479.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1481ir0.jpg

Do your speakers sound similar to your friends ?

Asking, first to narrow down if its the speakers or something else ...

Hi Hemanth,
Your system looks neat.
BTW, do you have the option of trying out any other amp ?
By any chance can you try a Marantz amp (PM-7200, PM-8000 or even an AVR) in your system ?

Where are you based ??

Thanks for you input guys.

Amp_nut,
My friend(based in US) says his system sounds good with tight bass, soundstage & imaging.

Abhi.phani,
I'm based in Bangalore,
Trying with other amps is one option I thought, but right now I dont have access to any other amplifier

Hi Hemanth,

IMHO, changing yr amp will not make silk out of a sow's ear !

Can you please reverse the + and - wires at ONE of the speakers, and check the sound ?

Awaiting yr feedback.

Abhi is also in Blore... why not invite him over ? There are LOTS of other Blore based Forum members who Im sure will come forward to see and Listn to those LOVELY looking speakers.

Hi Hemanth,
Check your private messages.

Hi Hemanth,

If after swapping the polarity on 1 speaker, as outlined above, does not increase the bass, then the problem lies in the assembly of 1 or both the loudspeaker units.

I am providing below a long but detailed check list that I would suggest; you follow in exactly the same sequence as outlined :

For ALL the instructions below, please deal with only ONE loudspeaker at a time and completely disconnect the other loudspeaker. Place the test loudspeaker in the room corner to get maximum bass while testing.

i) Check the polarity of the 2 woofers that you have conected. MOST PROBABLY this will be the error. Note that the 2 woofers must be connected in series as indicated in your cross over diagram i.e. the negative of the first must be conected to the positive of the second.

If you have not connected the 2 Woofers in series, the bass of 1 will cancel the bass of the other

Polarity correct and still insufficient bass ?

Then the problem is in the Crossover board assembled by you. Check connections and make sure that they are as per the Circuit Diagram, particularly the Junction of C1 & L2

ii) Completely disconnect the crossover.

Directly Connect your amplifier (1 channel only) to the 2 woofers connected in series as indicated in point i) above.

This MUST provide you the maximum bass that these speakers are capable of. If you are unsatisfied with the QUANTITY of bass in this configuration, then there is nothing more that you can do to your speakers. You have a problem with room acoustics.

NOTE : With the crossover removed and only the 2 woofers directly connected in series to your amplifier, your tweeter is disconnected and you will hear very little mid range and treble. The sound will appear completely muffled. Dont worry. Listen only to the bass.

If yo are satisfied with the QUANTITY of bass in ii) above, then you need to check your cross-over board.

iii) Double check to see that you have not interchanged the position of C1 & C2 that is C1 connected in place of C2.

Also make SURE that the Value of C-1 and C-2 are correct.

This again is a VERY PROBABLE cause of the problem you are facing.

Also check that L1 and L2 are not interchanged though even if they are interchanged, it will not cause the problem of low base.

This check list & procedure should (IMHO) positively identify and sort out the problem.

Do keep in mind what I have mentioned that you MUST deal with only 1 loudspeaker at a time when checking the internals. This is to ensure that the sound from the other loudspeaker does not influence the loundpeaker under observation.

Do let us know the results.



PS: Did your kit require you to stuff the inside of the loudspeaker with glass wool ? Have you done as required ?

Hi Amp_Nut,

Thanks for the elaborate troubleshooting checklist. I will try all those things as suggested by you.
I have stuffed the inside of the loudspeaker with glass wool.
Again thanks for your patience in providing a very descriptive response.

Hi All,

Every one of most welcome to hear my system. Please let me know if you are interested,and when you guys are free.

Hemanth schrieb:

Thanks for you input guys. Amp_nut, My friend(based in US) says his system sounds good with tight bass, soundstage & imaging. Abhi.phani, I'm based in Bangalore, Trying with other amps is one option I thought, but right now I dont have access to any other amplifier :?

Where in bangalore are you located ?
Did you try out any other amp in your system ?

I stay in Nagarbhavi(Vijayanagar, Bangalore west).
I have not tried any other amp with the speakers.

I was just curious about this amp thing...

Tight bass, soundstage & imaging are all attributes which can only be achieved with a good room and correct setup. These are not qualities which will appear magically if you put an expensive amp into the chain.

Even with a decent budget amp like the 320bee, if you have a decent room and your setup is right, you can achieve all these to a great extent .Of course, these attributes can be further enhanced by more expensive gear.

The amp is quite good for the money. I know two people who use this amp. One with a dynaudio audience 42 and another with the Cadence divas. They are quite happy. There is another member in this forum who uses the amp with cadence arita and listens a lot to western classical. I am sure he would have thrown the amp long back if it didn’t do the essential qualities an amp is supposed to do. Btw: The Achilles heel of the amp is the preamp section. If you bypass this one with a high quality preamp, you can take it to a different level.

i guess it is too premature to arrive at amp being the culprit.
I guess the first culprit would be the speaker .. amp_nuts instructions would let us know if it is the "construction" of the speaker which could be the culprit... nayways lets await that befoer we condemn the amp.

and square_wave, i also would not really suspect the amp as bass was defiunitely not the problem with the nad320 when i owned it.. its treble might have been peaky but no problem with the bass

Arj,
Yup….The Nad has its own quirks. But at that budget, you can expect some with any amp. Most of these problems can be solved by bypassing the preamp. I also feel the speaker / room / placement is the culprit here because the cables seems to be alright.

Arj,
You mean with the NAD amp, the treble you get is too much,coz the treble I get from this amp is too little in my case.

hemanth, I am a great believer in Amp-speaker sysnergy. my understanding of it is simplistic and laymanish but in the end the sound you get is not really due to one component but due to a combination of the amp/speaker. so categorising one into any slot does not make sense in most scenarios (Unless of course the other is totally neutral,but very few of them at most affordable price ranges are)

so while someone may find an amp bright the other will find it light and still someone else find it unexciting so i personally take such comments with more than a pinch of salt.

do try to figure out as to how your speaker is working..as that is most critical.

as as said before the primary suspect would be the speaker (not the design but the wiring etc etc as mentioned by amp_nut) and then, as mentioned by squarewave, the placement.

the cables would be the very last on my list. it is not going to improve bass or treble..but may improve the refinement of sound.

Hemanth schrieb:

I stay in Nagarbhavi(Vijayanagar, Bangalore west). I have not tried any other amp with the speakers.

Hi Hemanth,

I too stay in the same area, near Dr.AIT
Maybe we can meet up sometime on a weekend.

So how's the troubleshooting going on? Are you able to isolate the problem?

Hi Vodoo_child,

I have not yet started troubleshooting yet. It requires atleast one day, being a married person getting a day off for our hobbies is very difficult

AIT is around 2 km drive from my house, so lets meet on some weekend.

Cheers,
Hemanth

I could not open the images completely except the crossover, too large for my slow connection.

However, my first observation is that the distance between sidewall and speaker is too little, or maybe it's just the angle. You've toed the speakers in so primary reflections are less of a problem, but you're probably getting boundary reinforcement of some frequencies in the upper bass. This will cause some ripple in the region and can come across as muddy.

The flooring is very reflective, and depending on your seating position, this may cause midrange bounce from the floor, and a lot of ripple in lower treble anyway. Most probably these speakers are designed with carpet/wood flooring in mind, where you have concreted (?) floors. If you move the seating position closer you have to correct the listening axis , as well as reduce the baffle step in the crossover.

The components chosen seem to be reasonably high quality, so the only other thing I can think of is that you've incorrectly wired the crossover. Note that this is not the original crossover for the ErosII - that one is here: http://www.speakerbu...Project/mk2final.jpg Since you now have invested in 4 ohm woofers, you will be unable to use the correct crossover for a number of reasons. I suggest you write to Wayne and find out what (if anything) can be done.

There are a number of problems with the crossover you've posted - such as no impedance equalisation network, and an electrical second order rolloff where the original only had a first order. I don't know if the design was only simulated and not tested in reality, and therefore I cannot comment on whether the design is sound. However it looks like someone pulled the values out of a textbook.

The orientation of the tweeter in a second order crossover is critical. Ensure that it is indeed reversed wrt the woofers, or you'll get a null at crossover frequency!!

Do you have any measuring equipment at all? It is critical when you build your own speakers, as our ears are a very poor measuring instrument, and a fussy one at that. You can tell something's wrong, but to find out what, you need a measurement mic and some (free) software.

Since you have no frequency response, distortion or phase measurements, there is not much help anybody can give from your subjective feelings alone. The problem needs to come on to paper, and unless you measure, you'll never find the problem!

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the analysis you have done.
Madisound provided this modified Xover ($30), what my friend told was that this crossover was actually tested one. And he brought the kit from Madisound.

I dont have any measuring equipment and unfortunately I haven't done any real testing of these speakers.

Hi Amp_Nut,

Last saturday I performed the following troubleshooting:

1) I swapped the polarity of one of the speakers, but the bass remained same.

1) Checked whether the 2 woofers are connected in series. yes they are connected in series.

2) Checked all the connections in the crossover including C1,C2, L1, L2, R1 and R2. Everything is as per the crossover circuit diagram.
3) I disconnected the crossover. I directly connected the ampifier to the two woofers. I thought this would atleast act as ray of hope. Hmmmmmm, my bad luck, the bass remained same. So as you said this is the max bass these speakers are capable of Or it might be a problem with room acoustics.

I think its time for me to do so some improvements for the room acoustics.

Hemanth schrieb:

1) I swapped the polarity of one of the speakers, but the bass remained same. 1) Checked whether the 2 woofers are connected in series. yes they are connected in series. 2) Checked all the connections in the crossover including C1,C2, L1, L2, R1 and R2. Everything is as per the crossover circuit diagram. 3) I disconnected the crossover. I directly connected the ampifier to the two woofers. I thought this would atleast act as ray of hope. Hmmmmmm, my bad luck, the bass remained same. So as you said this is the max bass these speakers are capable of Or it might be a problem with room acoustics. I think its time for me to do so some improvements for the room acoustics.

Its the amp...

didn't read through the whole thread...but i would try another amp..like a DNA 125 or maybe you could coax Abhi into brining over his Plinius for a listen. The plinius seem to have a pronounced bass, decent bass in its class. The drivers that you are using are fairly low on sensitivity though efficiency is also something to consider. Coupled with whatever BS is associated with the cabinet design and BSC used in the crossover the speaker might be putting up a heavy load on the amp.

i just read ur opening post...you say, it lacks deep tight bass...so what exactly are you looking for here? subwoofer kinda bass? granted these drivers are top notch, but there is only so much you can achieve with a driver with an fs in the high 30 not to mention a 6.5 inch in a classic vented/closed design.

The only way u are going to get mind numbing bass is to go big on woofers or a horn. However, the room might be a factor here i think..at 14 x 18, that's a fairly decent sized room. YOu might want to walk around the room or rather hop around and see where the crests and troughs are of the sound waves. Or merely position your listening reference point at different places in the room and see what changes you can observe.

Top notch build though...makes my speakers look like crap...please do Pm me the carpenter's name and number for future reference.

Hemanth schrieb:

Even it doesn't sound warm enough(I mean high frequency response from the tweeter).

This i would put it down to the amp and CD player combo.

More so the CD player.NAD CD players seem to be very sterile and analytic to me. A Cambridge CD player might be better if you like those highs to sizzle. Even a Marantz would be a good place to start.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

i just read ur opening post...you say, it lacks deep tight bass...so what exactly are you looking for here? subwoofer kinda bass? granted these drivers are top notch, but there is only so much you can achieve with a driver with an fs in the high 30 not to mention a 6.5 inch in a classic vented/closed design. The only way u are going to get mind numbing bass is to go big on woofers or a horn. However, the room might be a factor here i think..at 14 x 18, that's a fairly decent sized room. YOu might want to walk around the room or rather hop around and see where the crests and troughs are of the sound waves. Or merely position your listening reference point at different places in the room and see what changes you can observe.

Hey buddy...I think he is just looking for decent floorstander-like bass (not sub-woofer types) and he is pretty far from it.

Well, what kind of damping have you done on the speakers? I see you have mentioned glass wool.

Is there glass wool stuffing directly behind the vent? If there is, then you should remove it.

Also, it is a rear ported design. Try moving the speaker closer to the rear wall and see if it changes anything.

Hi Hemanth,
Why don’t you come home with your amp ? I can show you what is possible with that amp if you have speakers which are not a heavy load. It is a 50watter (conservatively rated).
Like Savyasachi mentioned, if the speaker design presents a tough load, the Nad won’t drive them adequately. I have noticed this with a Kef q7 speaker. But I don’t know any 20 to 30k amp which can drive such speakers either. You will need a power amp or an expensive integrated with large power reserves for such operations. With the speakers that I have the amp produce more bass than I can handle. Ray brown upright bass can over power my room sometimes. The poem of Chinese drums on the burmester cd can shake the windows of my house with the Nad integrated. It drove an audience 52 bookshelf speakers too with vigor although they were rated at 86db.The combination matters a lot.

Pm me if you want to check it out.

square_wave schrieb:

Hi Hemanth, Why don’t you come home with your amp ? I can show you what is possible with that amp if you have speakers which are not a heavy load. It is a 50watter (conservatively rated). Like Savyasachi mentioned, if the speaker design presents a tough load, the Nad won’t drive them adequately. I have noticed this with a Kef q7 speaker. But I don’t know any 20 to 30k amp which can drive such speakers either. You will need a power amp or an expensive integrated with large power reserves for such operations. With the speakers that I have the amp produce more bass than I can handle. Ray brown upright bass can over power my room sometimes. The poem of Chinese drums on the burmester cd can shake the windows of my house with the Nad integrated. It drove an audience 52 bookshelf speakers too with vigor although they were rated at 86db.The combination matters a lot. Pm me if you want to check it out.

Good POint and good Idea. Hemanth, this is the best way to check out what you are missing.
that along with checking your speakers out with some other amp.

square_wave schrieb:

Like Savyasachi mentioned, if the speaker design presents a tough load, the Nad won’t drive them adequately. I have noticed this with a Kef q7 speaker. But I don’t know any 20 to 30k amp which can drive such speakers either. You will need a power amp or an expensive integrated with large power reserves for such operations.

I would have to differ a bit out here...

1. I have heard the Nad with Klipsch RF3 (98db sensitivity)...all I heard was some okay sort of mids and highs...NO BASS (almost)...the same speaker when driven through a Marantz PM-7200 was kicking ass.

2. I have also heard the Nad with Jamo E855 floorstanders...again some okay mids and highs but some hollow bass. The same speaker when paired with a Marantz PM-7001 (at the Cinebels) was sounding so full and rich on bass (I am talking about bass only).

3. I have heard the Tannoy F4 floorstander with Nad (at Music Ranch) and again dismal bass...but as soon as the guy connected the speakers to a Pulz Pre-power...the speakers were singing and dancing again.

I can give many more examples like these which were my first hand experience (not a data collection from Google ).

You dont need lakhs of ruppees to drive a 30k speaker !!!
Marantz, Pulz, Sonodyne, Norge etc...all have the drive and juice to handle reasonably difficult loads and they are all priced under 30k...why cant Nad do it ??
Infact Viren's 15 watter tube amp has better drive than the conservatively rated 50 watter Nad IMHO..ha!!!

I had a C320 BEE that I sold recently. I was never completely happy with it. It has a weird mid bass hump that makes everything sound rather unnatural and boomy. For long I thought it was my room acoustics, power and what not. Now that I have a much better amp, I realize that it was the amp all along :Y.

abhi.pani schrieb:

. I have heard the Nad with Klipsch RF3 (98db sensitivity)...all I heard was some okay sort of mids and highs...NO BASS (almost)...the same speaker when driven through a Marantz PM-7200 was kicking ass.

Well I owned the Klipsch RF3 and a NAD320BEE for close to a year .and the only reason i upgraded my amp was for the quest of further refinement in the midrange..the bass was the last of my concerns (overabundness was more like it)..and i love bass

anyway i have no interests in promoting the NAD! but stating it makes substandard sound only means that it was playing a wrong speaker or there was something else wrong in the setup (phase cancellation ?? )which has been hidden by the new setup !

or else the NADs sold in India have a serious design/quality issue.

I believe even manek used to use a NAD with his cadence for some time.

Arj schrieb:

Well I owned the Klipsch RF3 and a NAD320BEE for close to a year .and the only reason i upgraded my amp was for the quest of further refinement in the midrange..the bass was the last of my concerns (overabundness was more like it)..and i love bass

Ya, I know...but did you hear the same RF-3 with a Marantz PM-7200??
You would be stunned at the difference..I believe.

Hemanth will know if the amp can make bass if he comes home.

For most people I know “over abundance” is the issue with 320bee.

From all the replies posted here, only one gentleman has found the 320bee lacking in bass with the right speakers. So it does not matter……..

abhi.pani schrieb:

You dont need lakhs of ruppees to drive a 30k speaker !!! Marantz, Pulz, Sonodyne, Norge etc...all have the drive and juice to handle reasonably difficult loads and they are all priced under 30k...why cant Nad do it ?? Infact Viren's 15 watter tube amp has better drive than the conservatively rated 50 watter Nad IMHO..ha!!! :cut

Wow!!! I did not realize NAD was so bad !!

sivat schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: You dont need lakhs of ruppees to drive a 30k speaker !!! Marantz, Pulz, Sonodyne, Norge etc...all have the drive and juice to handle reasonably difficult loads and they are all priced under 30k...why cant Nad do it ?? Infact Viren's 15 watter tube amp has better drive than the conservatively rated 50 watter Nad IMHO..ha!!! :cut Wow!!! I did not realize NAD was so bad !!

How can I help ??

abhi.pani schrieb:

Arj schrieb: Well I owned the Klipsch RF3 and a NAD320BEE for close to a year .and the only reason i upgraded my amp was for the quest of further refinement in the midrange..the bass was the last of my concerns (overabundness was more like it)..and i love bass Ya, I know...but did you hear the same RF-3 with a Marantz PM-7200?? You would be stunned at the difference..I believe. :)

i dont know about that. i was just commenting on your earlier statement

I have heard the Nad with Klipsch RF3 (98db sensitivity)...all I heard was some okay sort of mids and highs...NO BASS (almost)...the same speaker when driven through a Marantz PM-7200 was kicking ass.

that there was No Bass....if the Marantz sounded better it should not be a big issue amp-speaker synergy can result in different optimal setups.

As I mentioned before in another thread I honestly found very little difference between the NAD, the PM7001 and the RA01 and ended up choosing the NAD over the others.



anyway I am neither a NAD lover nor a Marantz hater, but if Marantz is so much better then the company seems to have got its pricing strategy rather wrong

square_wave schrieb:

Hemanth will know if the amp can make bass if he comes home.

Why dont you carry your Nad 350 out to his place..its a 80 watter (conservatively rated)..it should easily drive his speaker...and it would also show him if his speaker can make bass...

From all the replies posted here, only one gentleman has found the 320bee lacking in bass with the right speakers. So it does not matter……..

And only 1 gentleman has found the Nad making good bass...so even that doesnt matter...

As I mentioned before in another thread I honestly found very little difference between the NAD, the PM7001 and the RA01 and ended up choosing the NAD over the others.

Did you try all the three amps with your Klipsch ??

No i did not, I tried all three with a Mission floorstander not sure which one.
again maybe the others would have performed better with the Klipsch, but the Nad was not at all bad and gave good results with most of the standard test/demo discs

Savyasachi,
I'm not expecting the kind of bass that comes out of a sub(I'm not a bass freak), I'm looking out for something normal bass that comes out of an usual floorstander.
I haven't stuffed the glasswool behind the vent.


Square_wave,
I will come to your home once and let me see how the amp performs.

Arj,
I bought this amp from US & I'm using a voltage converter along with it.

Hemanth schrieb:

Savyasachi, I'm not expecting the kind of bass that comes out of a sub(I'm not a bass freak), I'm looking out for something normal bass that comes out of an usual floorstander. I haven't stuffed the glasswool behind the vent. Square_wave, I will come to your home once and let me see how the amp performs. Arj, I bought this amp from US & I'm using a voltage converter along with it.

No problem Praveen.

I have send you a pm.

Hemanth schrieb:

Arj, I bought this amp from US & I'm using a voltage converter along with it.

we may be on to something here ...what is the power rating of the voltage converter ? it should ideally be at least at 600VA or above

my guess (just a guess ) is that lack of Bass could be due to the current limiting by the converter..

abhi.pani schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: Hemanth will know if the amp can make bass if he comes home. Why dont you carry your Nad 350 out to his place..its a 80 watter (conservatively rated)..it should easily drive his speaker...and it would also show him if his speaker can make bass... From all the replies posted here, only one gentleman has found the 320bee lacking in bass with the right speakers. So it does not matter…….. And only 1 gentleman has found the Nad making good bass...so even that doesnt matter...

Not really. The Nad makes decent bass for an amp costing 20k. That’s all. I have heard better and I know better bass is possible. I am not talking about detailed, tight highly tuneful bass here. For that you need very good amps. I am sure you have heard such high quality bass with Norge, sonodyne etc… I did not. I heard tinny, crappy, 2-dimensional sound with those. I had to listen to some really good amps to realize that. Plinius, odyssey and some Diy SS / Tube and some such amps comes to mind.

I assume you can read English. Please read the threads and you will see I am not the only person who thinks Nad does good bass for the monay.

Arj schrieb:

Hemanth schrieb: Arj, I bought this amp from US & I'm using a voltage converter along with it. we may be on to something here ...what is the power rating of the voltage converter ? it should ideally be at least at 600VA or above my guess (just a guess ) is that lack of Bass could be due to the current limiting by the converter..

Yup. Me too thinks the same......
Anyway, Prithvi had send me the c320bee and c350 and c370 when I had checked them out with the wharfedales long back. They all do decent bass. Let me check when Praveen comes home. The 350 and 320 bee should output the same amount of bass if I remember correct. I was quite surprised at the drive the 320bee had inspite of it’s 50watt rating.

square_wave schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: square_wave schrieb: Hemanth will know if the amp can make bass if he comes home. Why dont you carry your Nad 350 out to his place..its a 80 watter (conservatively rated)..it should easily drive his speaker...and it would also show him if his speaker can make bass...images/smilies/insane.gif From all the replies posted here, only one gentleman has found the 320bee lacking in bass with the right speakers. So it does not matter…….. And only 1 gentleman has found the Nad making good bass...so even that doesnt matter... I assume you can read English. Please read the threads and you will see I am not the only person who thinks Nad does good bass for the monay.

When I said

And only 1 gentleman has found the Nad making good bass...so even that doesnt matter...

I meant Arj...

Anyway, if thats the reason you are blown by the NAD...cheers..keep it up!!!

I am sure you have heard such high quality bass with Norge, sonodyne etc… I did not. I heard tinny, crappy, 2-dimensional sound with those.

Oh..yeah...you and your Golden Ears....we know..we know

chill out guys listen to a 3 watt SET. that will blow any nad away in bass in terms of sheer impact. perhaps even a few more expensive solid state ones. a statement i would consider ludicrous just a day ago before hearing it for myself