Gehe zu Seite: Erste 2 3 Letzte |nächste|

speakers for NAD C521BEE/C320BEE

+A -A
Autor
Beitrag
mr_vishal
Ist häufiger hier
#1 erstellt: 01. Feb 2005, 15:34
I am staying in Bangalore and I am planning to buy a stereo hi-fi. The electronics which i have chosen is

CD Player - NAD C521BEE
Amplifier - NAD C320BEE

Please give me some recomendations for speakers that match perfectly with this duo.

I have auditioned KEF cresta 30. will that be a good match for this pair?

Also please suggest some cable with model number for analog interconnect and speaker cable. what about QED?
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#2 erstellt: 01. Feb 2005, 15:49
visit Absolute Phase once and have a look at stuff there and you'll increase up your budget.....by leaps 'n' bounds
Manek
Inventar
#3 erstellt: 01. Feb 2005, 16:27
I have a similar combo and I use cadence arita. Deadly combo for the price.

Sdhawan on this forum uses kef coda spkrs if I remember correctly with a nad amp.

I use VDH D102MKIII as interconnect.

QED 25th anniversary spkr cable I have heard with a nad silverline S300 amp and they did well. QED as a brand is a safe one but dont know how it would sound with a nad320bee and your speakers...I've been trying to get the same spkr cable for my setup for auditin as well but alas, profx does not have a cut piece pair for home demo yet.

manek.
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#4 erstellt: 01. Feb 2005, 19:43
hi,
can i suggest the harman kardon DVD30. it plays Dvd and Dvd-audio formats. i have had it for about a year now and have no complains except that it is a bit slow in detecting DVDs.
it comes with 3 audiophile Wolfson 192khz/24bit DACs.
it does not have internal decoders for dolby or Dts but it does give out the signal as 2 channel and this can be connected to a reciever with built in decoders
(they logically decided to put the money into the excellect audio components instead of decoders as most receivers come with them built in.)
but to get the dolby dts effects you will need to make a digital connection b/w the dvd and the receiver( same as my setup)i.e use coaxial or optical. it has both along with analogue outputs.
dvd playback is excellent too with progressive scannnig.
it has Scart,Component,S-video and composite video outputs. basically it can be hooked up to any TV. check it out at Harman Kardon outlets.
it may have been replaced by the new H/K models.
i got mine from Dubai after auditioning it here in bangalore.

Manek give me your thoughts about my DVD30(if you have auditioned it).
joy_in_hifi
Ist häufiger hier
#5 erstellt: 01. Feb 2005, 20:15
Vishal,

See some of the other topic threads for discussion on various speakers.

Your options would range from KEF Q4 (ProFX), Jamo (Cinebels), Dali Concept 6 & Acoustic Energy Evo 3 (Absolute Phase), Wharfedale 8.3, Wharfedale Evolution 30 etc.

Cheers
Joy
SDhawan
Stammgast
#6 erstellt: 01. Feb 2005, 20:56
Vishal,

If you are considering KEF the try Coda 90 or Q 6 (onwards). Models below these are not really great.

On a budget - Diamond 8.4; JPW; are options worth an audition.

I'm using NAD C320BEE with KEF Coda 90 which is a 3-way floorstander with side firing woofers. Good tight bass and decent highs. Deserves to be evaluated.

Regards

Sanjay
mr_vishal
Ist häufiger hier
#7 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 07:00
Thanks SDhawan,benkenobi,Manek,SUB_BOSS


As SDhawan said i have to go for top of the line speakers in KEF but

Sdhawan, could u please tell me some opinions about KEF cresta 30.

The Low end response of Cresta 30 is 45 Hz where as
The Low end response of Coda 90 is 38 Hz. so I think there won't be much difference in the low end response.

What is your opinion Manek ?

sub_boss, Could u please tell me whether absolute phase deals with NAD?
Manek
Inventar
#8 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 07:49
sorry obi wan.....I have not auditioned the hk DVD30 long enough to comment on it. Just saw some trailers being shown at the local harmon shop with those JBL sub/sat speakers. Rather not comment.

The difference between 38hz and 45hz is in audio terms quite huge....so there will definately be a difference in low end response if the figures are to be believed.

Manek.
Arj
Inventar
#9 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 07:59
you could try the KEF Q1 (Book shelf ) with a solid stand as well..not sure of its price in India tho.
The Q series matches very well with the NAD amp and has better drivers than the Coda.
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#10 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 08:39
Well my parents are off to Dubai.
can't wait for them to get back. the Deftech i'm getting from there is rated to go down to 19Hz!!
won't that be something. my 8.4s are specified to go down to 30Hz.
Arj
Inventar
#11 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 08:46
theres lot more to sound than Hz !
makes more sense to have a Good sub for the lower response and let the main speaker take it from 50 Hz and up
Manek
Inventar
#12 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 09:02
arj is correct.....50hz and up should be your setting for floorstanders and the rest for the sub

BTW dont get too carried away by the 19hz....make sure you get good quality bass......btw I did hear on of the def tech subs at an av expo a couple of years back and they were good for HT....correct me if I'm wrong but they use a passive radiator, dont they ?

manek.
Arj
Inventar
#13 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 09:09
They do and are dipolar as well..hence not so well liked in Audiophile circles.
But are very easy to drive and with a strong bass which doed not require a sub..
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#14 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 09:26
get this, i just got a quote from the Dubai dealer.
NAD C 320BEE 10200 rupees
PARADIGM PDR-10 15000 rupees
Definitive technology prosub 100tl 14300 rupees.

well i was thinking of getting only the sub but maybe i'll get my folks to buy the NAD too.
by the way does anyone know the price of the NAD
Give me your opinions about the Sub. which would be best.
please get back to me ASAP.
mr_vishal
Ist häufiger hier
#15 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 09:33
I checked out Deftech 450. the quality of the bass is not that much good. Even Mourdant short bookshelf speaker can beat this deftech in terms of low end resolution.

but i think this may be due to marantz amp (not sure).

obi wan,

in sound n vision, NAD c320BEE costs Rs.18500, 8.5 k more than dubai

regarding kef, cresta 10 is very small and i need more bass.so i need opinions on cresta 30.

anybody who has auditioned cresta 30, please tell me ur opinions.
Arj
Inventar
#16 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 10:20
The Deftech Subs are very good for HT, paradigm PDR-10 has a smaller Thump, but is more musical
If it is Dubai you are looking at, try Velodyne or HSU as well..these are Very good.
Manek
Inventar
#17 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 10:23
would any REL sub be in your budget as well ?
Arj
Inventar
#18 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 10:24
That true..The REl Q150 is perhaps one of the most Value for Money in the Rel range..
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#19 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 10:36
guys the REL Q150E MK2 figured first on my list but it turns out that it is twice that of the Paradigm and Deftech. that's right it costs #0k in Dubai.
i had to drop it.

velodyne subs are available from the same dealer but i Don't see any good ones within my budget.
ARj could you let me know where i can get HSU subs in Dubai.
i actually prefer them to the Deftech. but i could not locate a dealer in dubai. let me know.

What do u guys think about the Nad. Should i go for it?
is it value for money.
i must tell you if i get it i will use it with my computer and not with any CD source.
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#20 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 10:37
oops! sorry i meant 30 k
Alymangy
Ist häufiger hier
#21 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 10:42
The NAD 320BEE for 10.2k is an excellent price. It costs about 20k in India and is not even easy to procure in Bangalore.

Its so tempting that i feel like saying "Get me one too"
big-ears
Stammgast
#22 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 11:00
Don’t know about the pro 100tl, but I have auditioned Deftech Supercubes 1 and 2 extensively and found them too boomy for my liking. The Sunfire True was, to my ears, much better. Eventually settled for a Velodyne HGS 18. Unbelievably clean bass, with not a trace of boom, even at high volume levels.

In Dubai, you should be checking out the Velodyne CT / CHT and Paradigm PS / PDR series. I believe there is some special offer on them.
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#23 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 11:06
hey big ears could you give me the model numbers that i should be looking at from velodyne.
the Paradigm PDR-12 costs 19000 which is overextending my budget.
big-ears
Stammgast
#24 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 12:10
Hi benkenobi,

Shops closed for the afternoon now.

Shall get back to you am tomorrow.

Cheers
joy_in_hifi
Ist häufiger hier
#25 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 12:41
Vishal,

On one of my visits to ProFX, I auditioned the Cresta 30, Coda 90 and Q4.
IMO the Cresta 30 does not have enough low end thump or punch. If you are plannin on a sub, then you would be fine.
The source was their Denon cdp and Denon 1055 stereo amp set to 'Direct' from source.

The Wharfedales Diamonds are at the same price range and are better value.

Cheers
Joy
stevieboy
Stammgast
#26 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 12:57
hi vishal,

i'm planning a similar set up and so far have found the diamond 9.1s (13k) and the quad 11L (28k) real good. so far i've listened to cadence divas, psb image 2B, dyaudio audience 42 and 52, dali blue 3003, mission m73, one kef model that retails for 22k, bose 301, b&w dm 303 and 601.

the diamond 9.1s and quad 11Ls beat all of the above hollow. except the cadences. though the bass from cadence sounded less clean than the quad. guess the cadences are better for jazz than rock. and i thought the wharfedales were some cheapo speakers so you can guess how good them must have been to win me over.

the dynaudio is an exception. sounds real clean on midrange and highs but too clinical, not musical. bass was not too good though.

hope it helps you


[Beitrag von stevieboy am 02. Feb 2005, 12:59 bearbeitet]
big-ears
Stammgast
#27 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 13:49
Hi Stevieboy,

Of all the speakers you have mentioned, I am surprised you did not find the Dyns to your liking.

Curious to know what was the amp and source, and what music did you play?
mr_vishal
Ist häufiger hier
#28 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 14:15
I need some opinions about Mission m74i speakers.

Are there any dealers for Mission in Bangalore?

Anybody please give me some opinions on this loudspeaker
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#29 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 14:31
i auditioned the mission 74i in modern world when i was shopping around. but i preffered the diamond 8.4s and that's what i have.
Arj
Inventar
#30 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 14:39
Interesting.
I heard the Dynaudio being called many things, but never this !
In fact its strongest points are its strong Bass response and one chink is believed to be in the high Frq area.

Difference could be due to the setup/source/amp..


stevieboy schrieb:
hi vishal,
the dynaudio is an exception. sounds real clean on midrange and highs but too clinical, not musical. bass was not too good though.

hope it helps you :)
stevieboy
Stammgast
#31 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 14:43
hi big ears,


well the dynes were little complex a mixed bag of attributes. i played dire straits 'your latest trick' and couple of songs from the album cos the first mentioned song has nice sax and clear stick work and bass. not a long audition, going for one again this week. the midrange and highs blew me! no comparison to anyone else. LOVELY! could hear the space where the sax stopped playing and the vocals were real clear and ummmm... lifelike. very detailed. bass little, not too technical minded so i'll use words like thumpy and not clear. hope you understand what i mean. not as well defined as midrange and highs.

the overall sound was detailed but did not give me a good feeling. it was like ya ok that vocal sounds real great. that sax sounds so shimmery but together it was not involving. very clinical. also didnt quite form the depth and soundstage that a cadence or quad or even the diamonds did. maybe placement was the issue but the guy assured me they were optimally placed. i specifically asked him. if the dynes had a little personal warmth they'd be killers!!! too impersonal.

oh ya amp was cambridge audio and then the cayin tubes. source was also cambridge if i remember right.

vishal mission m 74i supposed to be good. lots of reviews i've read online suggest that quality is a problem though. drivers blowing out at high volumes, baffles coming loose and service is not too prompt. so maybe you need to research that one little more
stevieboy
Stammgast
#32 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 14:57
hi arj, maybe natural is the word i'm looking for. bass was plenty for me but the quality was inferior compared to quad for example. maybe set up was suspect though. the soundsmith guys seemed only interested in shoving the tubes down my throat the moron. and when i told him my concern about the set up he just nodded sagely and toed in the speakers thats all. thats also why i just got up and left after couple of songs. not like dynes are available exclusively at them. going to lakozy to hear them too. more helpful friendly guys. though they have their own set of recommedations too
SDhawan
Stammgast
#33 erstellt: 02. Feb 2005, 21:22
Rearding KEF.

I found Cresta 30 better than Q 4 (??) and Damond 8.3 nearly the same.

Coda 90 better than Q5 (JPW not far behind).

But I guess the MOST important deciding factors should be the buyers budget & ears. One should not really get lost in technicalities, specifications and other trick stuff that salesmen entice you with.

So
1. Decide your budget
2. Pick good brands that fit your budget
3. Audition them a few times in random order (if possible blind folded because eyes can mislead the ears)
4. Buy & enjoy

It should be that simple . Well it wasn't for me.

Regards

Sanjay
Arj
Inventar
#34 erstellt: 03. Feb 2005, 07:31
I am pretty sure it is the setup
They are better than the Quads in Bass..quality & quantity (Very Tight'n fast..drums really kick) as well as the midrange. I felt the Quads were slightly better off with a smoother treble (All NAD setup)

The problem with Bass could be due to CA..not really the best amp for the Dyn load. the NAD does it better as it has better Dynamic current capability

The Marantz PM7200 also runs the Dyns very well.
The QUAD sounds great with Rotels (RA02/01) with a good midrange, laidback sound. but nt great Bass. I meand quality is there but quantity is missing.
Anyway whats important is how it sounds in your setup & room so your ears count more than any other comment !


stevieboy schrieb:
hi arj, maybe natural is the word i'm looking for. bass was plenty for me but the quality was inferior compared to quad for example. maybe set up was suspect though. the soundsmith guys seemed only interested in shoving the tubes down my throat the moron. and when i told him my concern about the set up he just nodded sagely and toed in the speakers thats all. thats also why i just got up and left after couple of songs. not like dynes are available exclusively at them. going to lakozy to hear them too. more helpful friendly guys. though they have their own set of recommedations too :D
Manek
Inventar
#35 erstellt: 03. Feb 2005, 08:02
Arj...I have also always felt that the cayin amps were holding the dyn's back and have told soundsmiths the same....ofcourse they did not take it too well They are somehow gung ho about the cayin amps and according to myriad(another user on this forum) they dont even know how what replacement tubes to send, but thats a different story.

Dyns sounded so much better with a mccormack amps they also sell. I have heard the combo and its really is good !

Heard the dyns with cayin,nad,rega and quad amplification and they really stand out but there is something wrong with the bass timing and bass seem to get one note(audience 42,52) in the lower registers...the timing I have seen only starts to come right from the contour 3.6 onwards(not perfect). Maybe thats what stevieboy noticed, maybe not, i dont know.

Stevie you should audition the dyns with other amps as well, maybe at lakozy, they are a different kettle of fish with other amps !

Manek.
Arj
Inventar
#36 erstellt: 03. Feb 2005, 08:58
Hi manek,
Very well could be the Tubes in the Cayins ! tubes should only be bought from dealers who know them

Rgarding the One note Bass, I think the Port of the Dyns are tuned at 45hz (not sure)..are you sure the problem is not due to Room cancellations of notes at the freq..I am pretty sure the setup with respect to nearness to walls etc are not appropriate. Sometimes a pillow each on each of the room corners abpove the speakers should cut down on that.. !
big-ears
Stammgast
#37 erstellt: 03. Feb 2005, 09:05
Hi Stevieboy,

I don’t mean to knock the Cayin / Cambridge amps, but IMHO Dyns need something really powerful to drive them. They absolutely thrive on power, 100wpc and up. If at Soundsmiths, you should have tried them with the McCormack DNA 125, that would have given you a better idea of their true capabilities. I know, McCormacks are pretty expensive, but then that is the kind of amplification needed to make the Dyns really sing. Or, at least, a high powered NAD / Rotel or a high current Arcam.

When you talk of Dynaudio, you are talking about a speaker manufacturer whose other end of the spectrum, the Evidence, retails for a whopping USD 86K. All their intermediate models, including all variants of the Audience, Contour and Confidence series have what is called the trickle down advantage and have been raved about by practically every reviewer in the world. These reviewers have auditioned them in-depth, for months, combined with myriad high quality components, prior to arriving at their conclusions, and not just formed their opinions over a 5 or 10 minute listen standing in some dealer’s shop.

Once again, I don’t mean to knock any of the other speakers you mention. They may all be fine performers, at their price points. But having lived with Dyns for over 6 years, I can only say I find them to be in a different league altogether. But then, hifi is very subjective, which brings us again to the talk of fish… .
stevieboy
Stammgast
#38 erstellt: 03. Feb 2005, 10:13

wrong with the bass timing and bass seem to get one note(audience 42,52) in the lower registers


what does that mean manek? does it mean that in the bass one note gets exaggerated, giving an impression of more bass?

well guys am in fact planning to go to lakozy today to listen to the dynes with nad. the soundsmith experience was a washout completely. yes big ears i agree with you the dynes were fantanstic with midrange the vocals were real killer! but for me that last iota of involvement was missing. fish again then again placement was a real issue i felt. like you say they need hefty power so that kinda puts them in the wanted list for future. right now they'd force me to spend more on an amp and bankrupt me!!!
its more of a couple of years system i'm looking at right now

by the way any idea how i go about auditioning quad with rotel without having to buy either component? no one stocks both i think. looks like i'll just have to take the rotel on reviews and recommendation!
Manek
Inventar
#39 erstellt: 03. Feb 2005, 10:33
stevie, if you go for the dyns....go for bigger power....thats the general consensus....yes, the mccormack did sound so much better with the dyn's, I remember listening to vilaldi 4 seasons the first two movements with the audience 72 and other jazz stuff and it was good !

Yes, about that one note bass, I did get the feeling it was not only in the demo room but also at a home installation on both the 42 and 52. Bass from the 42 and 52 was a mixed bag for me as well and the midrange although very clean, a bit thin. Yes, I do have a soft spot towards warmer sound. Larger speakers(72) were not much of a issue in this department. But overall I would rate the dyns very highly but with the right amps.

The shortlist during my hunt for speakers was Cadence arita, quad 12L, Infinity Kappa, Dyn52. I feel they are all wonderfull speakers with their posivites and pitfalls and depends on what one is willing to live with.

Manek.
stevieboy
Stammgast
#40 erstellt: 03. Feb 2005, 10:38
by the way big ears which dynes do you have?
Nagaraj
Ist häufiger hier
#41 erstellt: 03. Feb 2005, 10:57
Hi Vishal,

I run the older NAD 512 CD player and NAD 304 integrated amplifier combination with a pair of Tannoy Mercury MX3 floorstanders. I use the QED 25th silver anniversary bi-wiring cables. I stay in Bangalore too so do let me know if you would like to check out this combination at my place.

Regards,
- Nagaraj
big-ears
Stammgast
#42 erstellt: 03. Feb 2005, 11:11
Audience 70s. They are quite fine and were the What Hifi speaker of the year for 99.

Wanted to buy the Contour 1.3 SEs but they were above my budget.

Sad story of every audio buff!!
square_wave
Inventar
#43 erstellt: 03. Feb 2005, 11:37
The dyns really need power to open up and sound nice. With a normal integrated, other speakers might seem to have an edge over the dyns.
But once you connect a high current power amp to them, they will knock the knickers off most other brands.The dyns sound rather funny with lower powered integrateds.This is the reason why investing in dyns turn out to be an expensive affair. But you will be rewarded if
invest in the right amp.
big-ears
Stammgast
#44 erstellt: 03. Feb 2005, 12:21
Absolutely! Once you have heard a Dyn in full song, you are totally hooked.

Stevieboy, hear the Dyns driven with proper amplification, and you will never have any doubts about their bass. Also, the Dyns are very neutral, which means they deliver sound as close as possible to the way it was recorded. Other speakers may have sounded more inviting and interesting as compared to the Dyns during a short listening session, but that may be on account of the other speakers being coloured, and not because the Dyns have a shortcoming.

On the Rotel, there is a place past Juhu Scheme, just after what used to be a roundabout maintained by Lokhandwalla. The roundabout is no longer there, in its place is a large junction. It is called THE SHOPPE, or THE ONE, I don’t remember now, but they used to deal in Rotel. Both Nad and Rotel are good budget buys, with Rotel somewhat ahead on reliability. I have used both and I would concur with those who find the Rotel to be more reliable. My NAD suffered dry solder problems, which though not serious, did not speak very well about the manufacturing process. But I understand things have improved now.
Manek
Inventar
#45 erstellt: 03. Feb 2005, 12:27
stevie, what's your budget on the amp ?

manek.
stevieboy
Stammgast
#46 erstellt: 03. Feb 2005, 13:25
yeah big ears its called the shop. checked the website, there's no audience 70 only 72.. probably u got urs years before so thats why the name change now... what amp do you use?

hi manek, was thinking 20-25 k for the amp. what did you have in mind? any suggestions?
big-ears
Stammgast
#47 erstellt: 03. Feb 2005, 14:05
I think the 72s replaced the 70s in 2001. I am using an Arcam Diva A80 integrated now. Rated at 65 WPC but high current, Arcams have that specialty. Nice soundstage, nice bass, in fact nice everything.
Manek
Inventar
#48 erstellt: 03. Feb 2005, 14:34
stevie,

first decide on the speakers, be very sure in your mind about them, then we will have to find the amp to drive them adequately.

Manek.
mr_vishal
Ist häufiger hier
#49 erstellt: 04. Feb 2005, 11:34
I finally decided on my setup

CD Player - NAD C521BEE
Amplifier - NAD C320BEE
Speakers - KEF Cresta 30
Cables - QED Interconnect and speaker cables

Could you please tell me your opinions on this setup?
Alymangy
Ist häufiger hier
#50 erstellt: 04. Feb 2005, 11:38
Where are you getting the NADs from?

I remember you looking for NAD dealer in Bangalore...
mr_vishal
Ist häufiger hier
#51 erstellt: 04. Feb 2005, 11:42
From absolute phase. but iam looking for NAD cdplayer and amplifier in titanium finish. is it available in india?
Suche:
Gehe zu Seite: Erste 2 3 Letzte |nächste|
Das könnte Dich auch interessieren:
NAD C320BEE
Bibs am 01.12.2005  –  Letzte Antwort am 04.12.2005  –  2 Beiträge
Speakers for NAD C352
in_step am 29.03.2005  –  Letzte Antwort am 29.03.2005  –  8 Beiträge
speakers for NAD 320BEE
sammygeorge am 10.10.2005  –  Letzte Antwort am 30.11.2005  –  25 Beiträge
Nad c350 or c320BEE
benkenobi am 02.02.2005  –  Letzte Antwort am 03.02.2005  –  4 Beiträge
NAD C320BEE
Prithvi am 20.01.2005  –  Letzte Antwort am 08.02.2005  –  6 Beiträge
Speakers for a Nad 370
Porkstone am 17.01.2004  –  Letzte Antwort am 23.01.2004  –  5 Beiträge
speakers for nad c320 bee
stevieboy am 29.12.2004  –  Letzte Antwort am 11.02.2005  –  80 Beiträge
NAD C320BEE or C325BEE
Voodoo_CHild am 29.09.2006  –  Letzte Antwort am 13.10.2006  –  21 Beiträge
NAD C320BEE or HK670? NAD it is! Speakers?
centipod am 10.01.2004  –  Letzte Antwort am 15.09.2004  –  79 Beiträge
Help!! NAD C320BEE or C352CT
NADist am 12.01.2005  –  Letzte Antwort am 13.01.2005  –  7 Beiträge

Anzeige

Aktuelle Aktion

Partner Widget schließen

  • beyerdynamic Logo
  • DALI Logo
  • SAMSUNG Logo
  • TCL Logo

Forumsstatistik Widget schließen

  • Registrierte Mitglieder914.889 ( Heute: 6 )
  • Neuestes MitgliedMario_Johannes
  • Gesamtzahl an Themen1.528.934
  • Gesamtzahl an Beiträgen21.092.972

Hersteller in diesem Thread Widget schließen