Delhi Meet - November 06

Hi Sanjay,

Count me in. I'll bring some music too.

Viren.

Hello Doc !

I got the sms from you.
Thanks for remembering.
However, since I stay in Bombay, will not be in a position to attend.

I have asked another friend of mine from New Delhi to come over. His name is Arun. I will PM his details to you.

Have a nice time.

Thanks,

Regards,

Bhagwan

P.S. We are to have a small session in Bombay too @ AMP NUTS place on Saturday @ 1600. But this may be a 'closed' group. Shall be comparing SF extrema's with Cadence Amaya on PL [Prima Luna] & Flying Mole Amplifiers. Should be fun.

Hi Bhagwan !

Arun called me and will join us on Sunday. Thanks.

Do give us a detailed account of your forthcoming comparision of two giants.

Hello Doc !

Thanks for getting Arun in; nice fellow.

The report will be put in by Amp Nut.
However, they are not 'giants'
SF Extrema's & Cadence Amaya's

nor are

Prima Luna & Flying Moles.

None the less, it should be an interesting afternoon. We are going to listen to products at simmilar price points [on the 2nd hand market] & therefore it will make for an interesting session.

BHAGWAN

Hi Guys,

See my sparate post on the Mumbai meet, elsewhere on the forum.

All are welcome.

I agree, that NONE of the Equipment are Giants, but all offer Very Good Value-For-Money in today's market, and offer a good entry level into the true audiophile genre ( IMHO Ofcourse ! )

The comparisions will pitt different technologies ...

1. Valves vs Switching Amps

2. Conventional tweeter vs Electrostats

3. Standmount vs Floor Standing speakers.
(The 1992 Sonus fabor Extrema Speakers used the famed ESOTAR Tweeter, which even today sell for US $ 800 Each on Audiogon)
Check review of the Extremas at http://stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/915/

4. Electrosat Headphones Vs Electrostat Speakers.

And

Beer vs Tea & coffee....

How did it go ?

Who all came ?

Synopsis ? Some 'serious' gear was auditioned ?

BHAGWAN

Hi !

We had a nice 3-4 hours long session of music & working lunch. There were 5 of us:

1. Kamal
2. Viren
3. Sunilyo
4. Arun
5. Myself

The theme was "Listen to Music Not Equipment". And we heard some 30 different tracks including devotional, Indian Classical, fusion, film, Jazz, Rock, Western Classical & Opera (for Sunil's ears only).

So on one hand I initiated (coerced) Sunil into Western Classical Music and on the other hand I worked hard on the Gentleman that Viren is - to shift the accent from "Gentle" to "Man". Looks like Viren liked some Rock music for a change and very soon you may find the influence of Rock on his audio design

Kamal ? Well he is going to write a detailed review himself so I will not be his spokesperson.

Arun was new to our group (not to HiFi - in fact he is a really seasoned Hi-end HiFier). next month we plan to meet at his place.

We played CDs, SACDs & DVD-A on following gear:

-Denon DVD-1920 Universal Player
-Marantz CD-5001 CD Player
-NAD C3200BEE Amp
-KEF Coda 90 speakers

You will soon hear from Kamal. And I'm sure Viren & Sunilyo would not shy aways from voicing themselves.

We all missed Rahul Pandit - and presumed... and excused him for prefering to be with his girlfriend..... and if he wasn't then what a waste of Sunday

Sanjay,

Thanks a lot for that session - it was really enjoyable.

After listening to some of the tracks you played, I realize I enjoy the unplugged performances of most rock artists. To me they seem more from the heart; where their songwriting abilities come out.

I will definitely have to get the Bryam Adams Unplugged album - and, the McVities Hob Nobs!

Also, this session proves that musicality and enjoyment is not available only from high ticket equipment, far from it!

Viren.

I started off my day today with Bryan Adams Unplugged
Its such a juicy album.

hi all

Our meet this sunday all that I can say is it was indeed a true musical experience. I thank doc for organizing this meet and Mrs Dhawan for the delicious food (which truly speaking we were not prepared for).

If somebody gets the oppurtunity of speaking with Mr. Kamal and i bet they'll be decieved by his young charming voice. But when i met him in person he was totally from a different age group ;).

One thing that i got to know is that there is no age bar for enjoying music. Even if you are in your 70's you can still enjoy rock or romantic songs.

IF YOU LIKE IT YOU LISTEN TO IT.

Overall it was a good experience, we got the chance to listen to various generes of music and like doc said that Mr. Viren does have a liking for rock music.

Our new non-forum member Mr. Arun was also in his full josh.
And hope to see and listen to his setup next month hopefully.

What I think forum meetings should be something of this kind where music takes the centre stage and not the equipments. Members bring their own music that they like and share it with others and others get the chance to get exposed to new music/artist which they havent heard of or did not like to listen to.

AFTERALL ITS ALL ABOUT MUSIC.

regards - Sunil

SUNILYO said :

What I think forum meetings should be something of this kind where music takes the centre stage and not the equipments. AFTERALL ITS ALL ABOUT MUSIC.

Sunil buddy,

Please be a touch more tolerant for folks like me.

For me the Equipment is the focus, and the music a tool to examine it !

I also feel vexed when people tell me that Classical music is the MOST demanding and is the BEST ( they probably mean ONLY ? ) way to evaluate Hi Fi.

Just as a car enthusiast will be Thrilled to experience or even know of a car that has crossed 500 mph... even if he does not own it.

If he could ride that car, even at someone else's place, THAT would be his THRILL !

same for me.... Its the equipment I love to get to know, and sometimes SALUTE.

I know I am a 1% or even smaller minority... but I am comming out from the closet, I guess.

Wonder if there are other like me... who will publicly admit it. ( I have read from one other on this forum who has said just that )

To each their own.. ?



P.S: No Offence Implied or Taken. Just waqnted to say that there ARE folks like me.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

P.S: No Offence Implied or Taken. Just waqnted to say that there ARE folks like me. :)

sir Amp_nut, it is most important to know why one likes the hobby and you have it spot on.

so it is supposed to be Kudos to you !

most folks are not sure why they are it in the first place..think it is music but suffer from equipment envy and end up very confused since they listen to music which is supposed to be audiophile music and not enjoy it..but wait one is supposed to enjoy the music and not the equipment right..or is it ?

..as I said very very confused

anyway the word "Audiophile" means Audio lover or rather "sound "lover.. so it is not supposedly all about music !

I think there are times when I love the equipment and times when I love the music ...and dont find it possible manage to do the two togethersince the way to to it is so different
(Kamalji, doctor ji and gigiji NO double Entendres meant here this is not about them tubes )

viren schrieb:

Sanjay, After listening to some of the tracks you played, I realize I enjoy the unplugged performances of most rock artists. To me they seem more from the heart; where their songwriting abilities come out.

My favourit unplugged is by Clapton..its live and unplugged and amazing..if you are a CLapton fan.

just him and his acoustic guitar. the passion in his voice just brings out tthe emotion of the song

Hi amp_nut/arj,

Everybody has his own opinion, requirements, importance & likings.

For some it is the equipment and for some it is the music.

Like Amp_nut gave example of the car, yes the thrill of listening to the sound that comes out of an equipment which you can only dream of having is different and quite thrilling. But thats it once that listening phase is over we have to come back to reality and be satisfied with what we own. at that point of time the only thing that remains is music which no matter on what type of equipment you listen will be the same till you enjoy it.

For me type of equipment mattered till the time i was doing my research and finding the best setup that my pocket could fit into my pocket. and now when i have my setup the only thing i do now is listen to music and definitly it sounds great (to me atleast).

the above is my view only and not intended on any specific member.

SUNILYO schrieb:

But thats it once that listening phase is over we have to come back to reality and be satisfied with what we own. at that point of time the only thing that remains is music which no matter on what type of equipment you listen will be the same till you enjoy it.

Suniyo you are right on the above..although this might get into a men are from mars and women from venus discussion very soon..

but there is more to equipment than just finding the "right sound and loving it" what we need to be open to is that for some folks it is an unending series of tweaks/changes with a focus on improving the sound quality than just enjoying the music... Many people do it without realising it.

A High Fi fidelity system is definitely not necessary for enjoying music it may only enhance the experience..when it come to that I find my iPod very satisfying musically but it does not meet my Hifi standards.
Whe I enjoy music I am not necessarily sitting in the center with a perfect image.. i may be lying on the divan which is very near the right speaker and playing some old and bad recordings which have some great music.

But if i am enjoying my system i very damn well will be in my special chair exactly placed 2.5 m from the center of the speakers (I have identyfing marks for exact placement of the chair) and special music/recording to play it in. and of course there is that 15-20 min of ensuring all the power /signal cables are sufficiantly distanced and that the toe in for the speakers have not been modified by my son !

That is the way after a couple of years of audiophillic confusion I have resolved my exact needs and I find I am very happy and relaxed after both. and both are different paths for different objectives

Now someone else may have a different way of achieving it..what matters is if you truly like it your way and are true to yourselves about it

Amp_Nut schrieb:

SUNILYO said : What I think forum meetings should be something of this kind where music takes the centre stage and not the equipments. AFTERALL ITS ALL ABOUT MUSIC. Sunil buddy, Please be a touch more tolerant for folks like me. For me the Equipment is the focus, and the music a tool to examine it ! I also feel vexed when people tell me that Classical music is the MOST demanding and is the BEST ( they probably mean ONLY ? ) way to evaluate Hi Fi. Just as a car enthusiast will be Thrilled to experience or even know of a car that has crossed 500 mph... even if he does not own it. If he could ride that car, even at someone else's place, THAT would be his THRILL ! same for me.... Its the equipment I love to get to know, and sometimes SALUTE. I know I am a 1% or even smaller minority... but I am comming out from the closet, I guess. Wonder if there are other like me... who will publicly admit it. ( I have read from one other on this forum who has said just that ) To each their own.. ? P.S: No Offence Implied or Taken. Just waqnted to say that there ARE folks like me. :)

If you buy a fast sports car and run it on a sports track - you can really enjoy the car....and not neccessarily the journey. However, if you have an SUV and you drive to & through Ladakh...you can enjoy both the car & the journey ..... if you have a luxury sedan and drive to some exotic locale you just enjoy the journey.

I would probably fall in the second category - enjoy both the music and equipment. Bhagwan & Amp_nut are the Shumis of audio gear - they are "Technophile" - I'm audiophile.

Arj schrieb:

viren schrieb: Sanjay, After listening to some of the tracks you played, I realize I enjoy the unplugged performances of most rock artists. To me they seem more from the heart; where their songwriting abilities come out. My favourit unplugged is by Clapton..its live and unplugged and amazing..if you are a CLapton fan. just him and his acoustic guitar. the passion in his voice just brings out tthe emotion of the song

That's a great album. We played "Tears in Heaven" in our meet.

We also played unplugged "Nirvana" - All Apologies - that's another fine album.

anyway the word "Audiophile" means Audio lover or rather "sound "lover.. so it is not supposedly all about music !

True...its not only about music but also about eqiupments no doubts about it.
Only if one owns the best system in this world (which doesnt exists), its all about music for him...for the rest its BOTH, music and equipments.

And Sunil buddy here is something you wrote on this very thread just a few postings ago:

Our new non-forum member Mr. Arun was also in his full josh. And hope to see and listen to his setup next month hopefully.

So it shows that you are still interested/curious in seeing and hearing new setups....thats what Amp_nut and Arj are saying..its BOTH

So this statement that you have made afterwards may not hold true in strict sense.

For me type of equipment mattered till the time i was doing my research and finding the best setup that my pocket could fit into my pocket.

I'm listening to Crosby Stills Nash & Young Deja Vu. I'm loving the music and the way my system sounds!
Sometimes I think about how it will sound with a tube preamp!

Hi Guys !

"Audio" means sound/hearing and not audio equipment, and audiophile means one who loves sound (music).

BTW if there were no sound or hearing, what would you do with all the high end equipment - "Admire" them? Measure them on SPL meter, oscilloscopes or other meters and be thrilled with the results.

All those who proclaim that they are in love with only the equipment are also actually in love with the sound & music. They may appreciate it differently. For example they may say how well the system has reproduced the sound of this violin piece and its hormonics, and I amy say how well the violin sounds - but in the end the final common factor IS sound.

If you don't agree then do an objective test - throw aways all your CDs (or gift them to me) and plug your ears. Then critically evaluate your equipment.

SDhawan schrieb:

Hi Guys ! All those who proclaim that they are in love with only the equipment are also actually in love with the sound & music. They may appreciate it differently. For example they may say how well the system has reproduced the sound of this violin piece and its hormonics, and I amy say how well the violin sounds - but in the end the final common factor IS sound.[/b]

dr saab, no issue there. and what you say above is accurate.


take an example of the sheffield labs drums disk. as far as recording, dynamics, realism, bass, treble, soundstaging (3D) etc go they are perfect. but musical ? nowhere around it.
but there are people who go on listen to it and consistantly keep evaluating their equipments with it
all it makes are sounds which in a way "measure equipment"

so by equipment love, it does not mean looking at it but listen to what and how it does it ie looking at it "aurally" ,instead of visually. so sounds come out but the sounds are looked at equipment performance and that is what makes one feel good not the music that it makes .. and thats the difference.

so in your example above it would be as though you had closing the eyes and trying to evaluate the equipment in terms of above parameters.

similiarly cheskys ultimarte demo disk. a good piece of music collections but before that there is a commentary on what to listen. call it the power of suggestion but no one will be able to listen to "music" after that all you hear are sounds and these sounds help measure equipment performance.


on the other had if you want to relax, what you would do fix a good piece of musci pour a nice drink (Scotch or Jaljeera as the case may be) and listen to sounds creating music without really bothering about what is making it and how it does it. hence even if you do evaluate is the musicality of the music and not the performance of the equipment.

in some way they are all related but the way you look at it is what makes the difference.

the above are two extreme examples..most of us fall in one of many areas around it ans ..the only differenc is which way each of us swings to

All those who proclaim that they are in love with only the equipment are also actually in love with the sound & music. They may appreciate it differently. For example they may say how well the system has reproduced the sound of this violin piece and its hormonics, and I amy say how well the violin sounds - but in the end the final common factor IS sound.

Doc you are right that each has its own way of looking at things though each is still looking at the same thing.

Its very obvious that music came first (through instruments) and then the equipments. So there is no doubt that it is music that has dragged us into this hobby but still WE ARE DIFFERENT ...we are AUDIOPHILES.
Now how are we different. If it is only about loving music then I can think of atleast 2 dozen audiophiles in my small office where I work. These colleagues of mine are all big time music fans and have tons of mp3s on their PCs and they are all voracious listeners of music. And they just dont bother through what is there music getting reproduced, is it a small in built computer speaker or whatever. They would be much more happy with a boom-boom mini compo than a rather clean sounding Wharfdale bookshelves...but at the end of the day its music that matters to them...ARE THEY AUDIOPHILES ?????

I would say NO. That is because they dont bother about accuracy of music reproduction. That is the reason this world has so very little number of audiophiles. Infact IMO audiophiles come next to an artist (a real instrument player), they appreciate the next most accurate thing after the real instrument...i.e hifi. Thats where we stand. So we not only appreciate music but also the accuracy with which the music is reproduced and we love that accuracy along with music, and that differentiates us from a general music lover. In the process of appreciating accuracy we do tend to appreciate the equipement as well which does the job for us and thats where we just cant disconnect ourshelves from equipments and appreciate music alone. It would be against nature IMO.

So to sum it up, while we use equipments to enjoy music, we also use music to enjoy the evaluation of equipments. Its a two way process IMO

Hi !

I agree with both Arj & Abhi. We are all purists & perfectionists when it comes to pleasant sound / music reproduction. We never ever test our equipment with how well it reproduces street noise or factory noise, etc. And even when we do use noise it is "pink" noise.

In reality we are a good mix of "audiophile" + "technophile", just that the proportion of "tech" varies.

BTW the 2 dozen or so people in anyone's office who are badly hooked to MP3 ARE also audiophile - I would say they are "uninitiated" audiophiles. If they had the opportunity to experience quality sound and learn more about hifi and had the funds - many of them would "convert" to our relegion soon.

All I mean to say is that none of use is pure equipment lover - none of us love washing machines, dish washers, vacuum dryers - these also equipment and they do produce sound.

All audiophile love sound - some appreciate the source (the artist) and some the medium (equipment) but we all love to hear good sound reproduced with highest fidelity. And mind you this "fidelity" is to the artist and not to the listner.

Happy hearing !!!

Doc said :

throw aways all your CDs (or gift them to me) and plug your ears. Then critically evaluate your equipment.

Doc, sorry, cant give you my CDs

As I said, I use the music to evaluate the equipment.

I am glad that I have spured such an active discussion !

Also, I dont think Bhagwan falls in my category of 'Equipmentphiles' as some of U guys would like to brand me...

Good Morning Doc and others out there,
We definitely dont bother sounds coming out of a washing machine or mixie, because its music that has dragged us here. So there is no denying the importance of music. At the same time the "tech" part being the next most important thing in the audiophile's life also takes prime seat...hence a mix and match of both goes on in our life. Sometimes the equipment is more important (typically when you dont like the track being played, a lot) and sometimes the music is more important (typically when your favourite track is being played or something is being played which you love to listen).

BTW the 2 dozen or so people in anyone's office who are badly hooked to MP3 ARE also audiophile - I would say they are "uninitiated" audiophiles. If they had the opportunity to experience quality sound and learn more about hifi and had the funds - many of them would "convert" to our relegion soon.

Hmmmm...doc, not as easy as it looks like. I have had a few friends (all music lovers) visit to my place and they just loved what they heard. But then they havent turned up after that. They would rather spend an evening gossiping in a coffee shop rather than sparing sometime to PURE music...when I ask them, they say, even in Cafe coffee day there was some good music..

I suppose its not for no reason that the audiophile community so small...we totally think in a different way and devote a portion of our life to it....thats not others would want to do...however music buff he is. The amount of time we spend reading about audio and discussing things, its rare to find people who can even understand our purpose, forget about getting involved. For them music is only for entertainment which can be substituted by other forms of entertainment as well...but our defination is different, there is no substitute here.

Hi !

I agree with you all. The conclusion I want to bring out is:

We are all at the same frequency, the harmonics may differ a little

well said doc !



Abhi, jut one more point, MP3 listeners are not really audiophile but perhaps musicophiles..Audiophile in the current context of being used around the world in every forum does have a lot to do with equipment and perhaps a little bit more so than pure music

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Doc said : throw aways all your CDs (or gift them to me) and plug your ears. Then critically evaluate your equipment. Doc, sorry, cant give you my CDs Also, I dont think Bhagwan falls in my category of 'Equipmentphiles' as some of U guys would like to brand me...

I am most definately an 'Equipmentphiles' as 'AMP-NUT' puts it. Music is a tool, I use to enjoy my hobby - audio.
Therefore, good music [harmonically & recording wise] is important. Without that, I would not know my head from my toe.

CD's are very very important to me. Sad part is that less than 1 % of my 'small' collection can actually be used for any 'critical' listening. 99 % is 'rubbish' recording. May be great musically, but it does not help my cause.

BHAGWAN

SDhawan schrieb:

Hi ! We are all at the same frequency, the harmonics may differ a little :hail

I would love to agree, but it is a bit difficult.
I would be so much more happier if many of us were tuned on the same 'frequency' but we are not.
Things on this forum do not seem to be going beyond the 'BEE Syndrome'...........[sorry, I like NAD, but it only begins there]

There is so much more to listen to, we are just not exposing ourselves to it. If it comes our way, we dismiss it as 'expensive' etc. It is not so, good things are expensive & good gear WELL SET UP really sounds 'different' & needs to be experianced.

I really hope & pray, that my fellow forum members wake up to this & try to experiance what lies out there & not just dismiss it because it is 'relatively expensive'.

I got a first hand experiance on Saturday @ Amp Nuts place when 'zopudey' heard 'mid-fi' for the first time in his life. It was nice to see a young kid get exposed. He will strive for more........I pray.....

Bhagwan

SDhawan schrieb:

Hi Guys ! "Audio" means sound/hearing and not audio equipment, and audiophile means one who loves sound (music). If you don't agree then do an objective test - throw aways all your CDs (or gift them to me) and plug your ears. Then critically evaluate your equipment.

Audiophile, from Latin audire "hear" and Greek philos "loving," is a person dedicated to achieving high fidelity in the recording and playback of music [1] [2].

This is the actual meaning of the word 'audiophile'

BHAGWAN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophile

Please do go to this page & read the part that says :-

Objective versus Subjective

BHAGWAN

Hi guys, sorry for the delay in posting details re our music session on 12th Nov at Sanjays’ place; my comp was creating “pangas”.
I would, before anything else, like to place on record our thanks to Mrs Sanjay for her hospitality, including parting possession of her husband on a Sunday;we were certainly not expecting the great lunch, apart from the Kiwi juice, dry fruit, coffee& the McVities Hob Nods Cookies( try them, guys, they’re great !). The session was certainly not on empty stomachs!
Sanjay had organized the session very methodically, printing out copies of the tracks he proposed to play giving artist/ track/album/media/manufacturer & details of his eqpt-being an eye surgeon I guess such a meticulous attention to detail comes naturally to him.
We decide to evaluate the tracks on a 5 Pt scale on parameters like –E=emotional appeal, I= instrumentation/orchestration quality, V= quality of vocalization ,R=recording quality, M= overall musicality. I shall list each item in the foll order-Artist/track/Album/media/Manufacturer, folld by a brief description and then the rating of each parameter on a 5 pt scale.
We started the session, appropriately enough, with a religious track-
1,Uma Mohan, Gayatri Devi/Mangalacharan/Sacred Hindu Chants Vol 3/CD/Kosmic,Chennai.-A very melodious track, beautifully sung, it instantly set the mood! Combined singing of the Almighty with the divinity of music. This Album fuses traditional lyrics & melody with modern orchestration using western instruments also and makes for an album which would appeal to all age group .I have possessed the first two album of this series & fully intend adding this one .Highly recommended-E5,I4,V5,R3,M4.
2.Artist-various/Om Mani Padme Hum/Tibetan Incantations/CD/Cding International,Nepal.
A very nice Album-as expected, vocals were top class as also the mood the track evoked,traditionally minimal orchestration-focus is primarily on the quality& appeal of the chanting .We all fell under the spell of the track even tho Viren & I had heard it before while audioning the Lyrita setup.There are 3 tracks in this Album & all are hypnotic in their appeal.Would be an excellent addition to a music collection ;great for, e.g.listening in the morning at the start of your day.E5,I5(given a 5 since ,being minimalistic,it was fully appropriate & not intrusive to the vocals),V5,R3,M4.
3.Mani Sharma,Amit Heri/Mahaganpathi/Morning Raga(Movie)/CD/Music today.
This was a pleasant surprise since , because the movie had sunk without a trace, the music was also not noticed by the DJs.A v. nice listen,V proficient vocalization,great music, evocative of the religious mood when we are all reminded of our sins & go easy on the booze at least for the day.E3,I5,V5,R3,M3.
4.Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan/Allah Hoo/Parchaiyaan/CD/RPG.
A track that fully brought the genius of Nusrat-not a sonorous/melodious voice(cf Jagjit) but what control, what an ability to convey emotions-this, acc to me, is the foremost quality in a singer-the ability to portray the emotion of the lyrics,the melody.
One of the best compilations of Nusrat that we had heard, we all agreed.E4,I4.V5,R3,M4.
5.Jagjit Singh/Mana Ke/Echoes/CD/RPG.
This one’s for you Kamal, said Sanjay when he spun this disc, knowing that I’m a long time fan of the great JS. And all the magic came flowing out of the KEF’s! I would vote for a Bharat Ratna for Jagjit, would’nt you? Truly a national treasure. I would cheerfully trade half the cabinet for him!E4,I3,V5,R3,M4.
6.Sunidhi Chauhan/bhaage re man/Chameli/CD/T Series.
Sunil’s eyes widened & his eyebrows bounced off the ceiling when I requested Sanjay to spin this one ! I guess he expected me to stick to Bhajans, eh, Sanjay?
Guys, this is one great album/standout track-for once the recording engineers have done a great job-you hear a wealth of detail thru a high resolution systemmwhich makes the music come alive. Sunidhi(watchout for this singer) has done an astonishing job with the lyrics & the melody, the romance in the song comes across so forcefully! E4,I5,V5,R5,M4.
7.Ghulam Ali/Dil Me Ek Lehar/Best Of Ghulam Ali/CD/RPG.
Another old ,well known ghazal of the master from across the CFL. This was an above avg recording from HMV and showed the importance of the sound engineers art in recreating the magic at home.Most of our recordings are below the international level & hence we lose the full impact of the music/artists’ virtuosity.
This one was a standout and cast a spell with its melody, impact of the poetry brilliantly vocalized by Ghulam Ali , all the tonal nuances of the performance coming thru.
E4,I3,V5,R4,M4.
8.Lata/Paani Paani Re/Maachis/CD/BMG Crescendo.
Another well known, well loved track, this one played by Sanjay exemplified what I had said earlier abt the necessity of hi rec Qlty-The impact was hair raising, the so realistic sound of flowing water(Shut your eyes & you would swear that you were sitting by a river stream!),the opening bars of the melody and then the magic of Lata’s voice singing the soulful lyrics of Gulzar-Magic at high noon!E5,I5,V5,R5,M5.
9.SP balasubrmaniam/Sach mere yaar hai/Sagar/CD/Universal.
A pretty swinging song!I had’nt heard this one before so there was the additional joy of discovering a new song.Foot tapping stuff by one of th e south’s maestro-It’s a wonder what virtuosity can do to “filmy” lyrics. Good rec Qlty again.E3,I3,V4,R4,M3.
10. Diana Krall/’s wonderful/The Look Of Love/SACD/Verve.
A standout performance by the high priestess of blues/jazz.When we remarked on the extreme transparency of the number,Sanjay informed us that it was an SACD that we were listening to.Pity ther aint many recordings av in this medium-wonder if it will survive.Great “mood “number, great vocalization, great recording.E4,I4,V5,R5,M4.
11.Miles Davis/Time after time/Essential Jazz/CD/Sony.
A swinging performance by the master!Clearly shows why he’s one of the greats.
When this was played we all sat back, stopped discussing, and savoured the performance.Viren had a piquant smile on his face (Like Mona Lisa!) ,he’s such a jazz aficionado. E4,I5,R4,M5.
12.Norah Jones/Come Away with Me/Come Away With Me/CD/EMI.
One of the tracks from the great album that got her the multiple grammys. I think we Indians have a soft corner for Norah-she’s half Indian courtesy Panditji’s international swordmanship! A very magical, soft number, beautifully sung in her unique husky voice ,evoking so nicely the air of yearning in the song. At the end we all felt like coming-(away with her of course, what were you thinking?!).
13.Celine Dion&Pavarotti/I hate then I love you/Let’s talk About Love/CD/Columbia.
Sanjay then played this track featuring apart from celine who’s well known.Luciano Pavrotti, one of the greatest Tenors of our era. Wooo, the power in his voice,he made celine sound tinny in comparison.Guys, you have to admit that classical artists are in a category of their own-when you hear a track like this one, their sheer mastery comes thru so dramatically! Old lyrics,familiar to everyone, but when heard thru Pavrottis’ voice ,the impact gathers additional dimensions!The Agony & Ecstacy of love comes through so powerfully!E5,I4,V5,R4,M4
14.Mr Big/Going where the wind blows/Big Bigger Biggest/CD/Warner.
An astonishing track! I had not heard this one at all so the pleasure was doubled..
I must say Sanjay has built up quite a collection and is well on his way to becoming a musicophile-Arun , at one stage. earnestly advised him to sell of his KEF’s & go in for another more advanced ones ( not surprising, seeing how he’s a close pal of bhagwan), But I don’t think Sanjay seemed too interested-his focus , now that he has a well balanced system, is to discover more & more music-an attitude I heartily agree with.
E3,I4,V4,R4,M4.
15.Nat King Cole/Unforgettable/20 Golden Greats/CD/EMI
Barring Viren& Sanjay, others had not even heard of Nat! Not surprising since he belongs to a bygone era. But my God ,what a voice! He never loses his pitch, impeccable timing( not surprising since he was also an accomplished pianist) & the feeling he embues to a song! In those days ,the music arrangement& virtuosity of the accompanists was of an astonishing order.Do hear Nat King Cole-I guarantee you’ll be entranced!E4,I5,V5,R4,M5.
A Break for lunch & then we girded our loins ( at least those who had loins left after the ravages of time & wear and tear) for some rock stuff--
16.Eric Clapton/Tears in Heaven/MTV Unplugged/CD/New Age, Nepal.
This “natural” version had even Viren, who is not much of a rock fan, smiling and tapping his foot.An Unplugged is he best way to listen, methinks. the magic of Claptons guitar playing each note so resonatingly clear, his singing-Jaadu indeed! The mood now changed and we were all ready for more.E4,I4,V4,R3,M4 .
17.Bryan Adams/I’ll Always be there for you/MTV Unplugged/CD/AM
Another unplugged number & Viren started saying “not bad, Quite good actually, I must get this Album”! He does not like electronic processing of music much,inevitable in huge rock concerts, and this really got thru to him as did the next one by Nirvana. A truly great track, Adams Unique husky/raspy voice floated out in all his glory-Guys, get this Album!E4,I4,V4,R4,M4.
18.Cat Stevens/Moonshadow&My Lady D’Arbanville/The Ultimate Collection/CD/Universal Island.
Bet you have’nt heard of this great exponent of classic/soft rock either-only Viren& Sanjay had-Not surprising, soft rock is preferred by people whose valves have become soft! Two great numbers by a master, we all heard with rapturous looks on our faces, esp the ballad like “My Lady..’, with is resouning acoustic guitar accompaniment. Do hear this Album, its available in India. E4,I5,V5,R4,M5.
19. Nirvana/All Apologies/MTV Unplugged/CD/Music World.
This was a revelation to me! I had always associated Nivana with rock of the kind that makes you run for the aspirin, but this was a slow, softish number-I wont go into details since its doubtless familiar to all, but all of us enjoyed the number.E3,I4,V4,R3,M4.
20.Queen/The show must go on & Bohemian Rhapsody/Best Of Queen, Vol 2/CD/Parlophone.
Some great classic rock from a bygone era! Why is it that Queen sound so good even now? Time less stuff.Two great numbers esp the astonishing vocal harmonizing & changes of tempo & intensity in the bohemian .A real treat & a must listen-do check this out if you haven’t heard Queen.E4,I5,V5,R4,M5.
21.Dire Straits/Sultans of Swing/Sultans of Swing/CD/New Age, Nepal
Does any one need any introduction to this classic group/Album? Sanjay says he picked up this & the Clapton Cd for INR 100 apiece in Nepal so you know what to look for if you hit Nepal. Here, Arun asked Sanjay to deconnect the subwoofer section of the KEF codas,& after listening to the number played thru the resulting two way system ,declared that he preferred the sound now better. When the number was played after reconnecting the woofer, at leas Viren & me felt that the sound had improved, it had more “body” To each his own…..E4,I5,V4,R4,M4.
22.Eagles/Hotel California/best of Eagles Vol 2/CD/Asylum(Tips)&Eagles/Hotel California(new version)/Hell freezes over/CD/Geffen.
Heard this classic ,alltime great number ;the new version was the live one and was more peasant to hear-reaffirms the fact that theres no substitute to hearing music live-the excitement of the live version even in recorded albums sounds better than the studio version.E4,I5,V4,R4,M4.
23.Ravel/Bolero/Ravel Bolero, Orch Paris/DVD Audio/EMI Classics.
We then heard one of the only two DVD Audio’s that Sanjay had managed to hunt down-wonder why the studios are not taking more advantage of this high resolution technology .the difference was apparent –more lush, warm, open; methinks this approaches analogue sound. Great music, great recording.E4,I5,R5,M5.
24.Uljana Levit/Fruhlingsstimmenwalzer/Weiner Hofburg Orchestra/CD/Frankie Damage. “This ones for you . Sunil”, said Sanjay, and our Sunilyo jumped up as if someone had stuck a dagger in his backside ,but he let the KEF’s sing!
This was classic opera at its best and Uljana’s voice did amazing things! I had never had much of a brief for opera but this was captivating stuff! For Sunil it was nirvana and we all smiled at seeing him have musical orgasms! On HiFi systems, music sounds so great, that even genres that you are not familiar with hold you spellbound-I guess to that extent its worthwhile to be an audiophile.E4,I5,V5,R5,M5.(E4 since we could’nt understand what the heck she was singing, but all the same it sounded good) .
At this we all got up return Sanjay to his family, it had been a long but so pleasant an afternoon, but he put on-
25.Shravan/Akdam bakdam/Hanuman tapas Relia/CD/Music Today
A number from India’s first animated film, Hanuman ! We stopped in our tracks, grinning while Sanjay’s two adorable kids started dancing! A great way to round of the audition , the sight of two kids happily enjoying their music……
Regards,
Kamal.

what an amazing collection of tracks. thank oyu for the time and effort in putting it together.

we need to have more "regular" music featured rather than the standard jazz and western calssical" stuff as those get reviewed everywhere.

to me Jagajit sing and Bhupinder and sometime yeshudas are people whol I love to listen to in vocals as their depth of voice comes acriss so well.

Sonu nigam, Shaan,sunidhi chauhan and shereya ghosal are also really getting tere

And I cannot agree more on the Hanuman Soundtrack.

on the DVD all the singers and actors actually sing/perform to it on the tilte stage and you can really feel tha passion and energy put in by them..especially Shaan. it was after this that my 3 year old son started getting interested in music !

Audiophile, from Latin audire "hear" and Greek philos "loving," is a person dedicated to achieving high fidelity in the recording and playback of music [1] [2]. This is the actual meaning of the word 'audiophile'

What a coincidence! I too went to wikipedia to look up "audiophile' since the discussion was getting so intricate and involved.
Bhagwan ,while I agree with the definition as quoted by you, here's another one from the same page in the link:
(quote)"One statement that has influenced many audiophile values [citation needed] is from Harry Pearson, longtime editor of The Absolute Sound:
"We believe that the sound of music, unamplified, occurring in a real space is a philosophic absolute against which we may judge the performance of devices designed to reproduce music."

Audiophiles widely share the belief that even the world's best music-reproduction equipment currently falls far short of this ideal."(unquote)

It is becuase of this that people like Sanjay, Viren, & many others in the forum believe that once you have settled down with a good system( I don't deny that you should take a lot of care & effort in locating such a system in thfirst place), its time to start listening to music, and spend your subsequent efforts in locating more & more music to enjoy!
people like us will go back to the market when an improved format e.g,tapes after LP's( I know many Vinylists will contest the statement that tapes were an improvement)& Cd's after tapes.\Once we settle in with a new format player, we ,like homing pigeons, go back to our first love viz, listening to & enjoying music-we do not want to spend our lives constantly upgrading in the search for the perfect music system!
I do understand that you get your pleasure in your search for better & better eqpt and are able to indulge yourself since God has blessed you with the resources & the passion to do so.
But for many people with limited resources which they have to prioritise do not possess that luxury.
Hence I feel that one of your posts above implying criticism of people who do not keep trying to improve their setup is a bit unfair-from your perspective it may be the right & only thing to do , but others may have neither that compulsion or the resources-many things in life are a compromise.
BTW, I skimmed thru the Subjectivists vs Objectivist article in wikipedia ; take care , it knocks many of your theories too!
Regards,
Kamal

Thanks Arj-we really had fun so I guess you guys should also organise such get togethers.

we need to have more "regular" music featured rather than the standard jazz and western calssical" stuff as those get reviewed everywhere. to me Jagajit sing and Bhupinder and sometime yeshudas are people whol I love to listen to in vocals as their depth of voice comes acriss so well. Sonu nigam, Shaan,sunidhi chauhan and shereya ghosal are also really getting tere

I quite agree, one should develop the habit of listening to a vast variety of music -no genre should be considered beneath the dignity of even audiophiles!
Kamal

Dear Kamal !

Thanks a lot of a very desriptive review. I was eagerly waiting for it.

panditji's international swordsmanship !

Kamal

Sometimes pen is more powerful than the sword !

And yes I believe that the equipment should become invisible and only music should flow ..... the is so much treasure of music to be discovered.

I like the simple catch phrase of Worldspace promos:

"There is so much to hear" - A R Rehman

Could'nt agree more Sanjay-am looking forward to our next music appreciation session.
You do have a knack for coming up with nice ideas.
Regards,
Kamal

Sanjay,

I was just going through what you guys played and the first part of the music selection was right in my lane. Sacred chants (vol 3), Ghulam Ali, Jagjit singh, Tibetan Incantation (The Meditative sound of Buddhist chants(though I like the Matra of Avalokiteshvara better), are all my favs.

After getting into the world of neutral speakers and clean amplifiers, I am hooked onto Hindustani classical...Ravi shankar, Shiv Kumar Sharma, Hari Prasad Chourasia, Zakir Hussain, Shobha Gurtu, etal are my eternal companions during the stress filled weekdays. My parents who saw me brought up in metal and heavy metal sometimes wonder what brought about this change.

After listening to you guys, I wished I could have heard an album I bought recently by a Turkish artist Turqay Ozufler.

Pranab,

You must watch this movie "Morning Raga". If you are emotional about music and if your interest ranges from heavy metal to Indian classsical, then you will really enjoy this movie & its music.

Dear Kamal,

Sir,

I would have liked to quote you, but there is so much I can comment on, that the post will get too long, so I just want to make 1 simple point;

Everyone & Anyone can be a music lover. However a music lover does not have to be an 'audiophile' !

If you love music, great, listen to it [on what ever set up that you like - computer, boom box, i-pod etc.], but if you one says that he/she is an 'audiophile' then the way in which that music is listened to will change.
That sir, in my main bone of contention.

Regards,

BHAGWAN

Everyone & Anyone can be a music lover. However a music lover does not have to be an 'audiophile' !

Exactly...and that I think everyone will agree upon.

Bhagwan Said:

If you love music, great, listen to it [on what ever set up that you like - computer, boom box, i-pod etc.], but if you one says that he/she is an 'audiophile' then the way in which that music is listened to will change. That sir, in my main bone of contention.

I could not have said that better.

To those 'music lovers' who have not yet heard a 'GOOD' system, please do open your minds and take that walk to a good Hi Fi system. (It need not cost you anything, except your time & commute)

THAT will be yr first exposure to what 'audiophiles' seek.

Amp_Nut wrote:

I also feel vexed when people tell me that Classical music is the MOST demanding and is the BEST ( they probably mean ONLY ? ) way to evaluate Hi Fi.

Buddy,
I know nothing about Classical music....but IMO its mandatory for an equipment (speakers or amps) to perform well in Acoustic music to be qualified as hifi....if it doesnt, however well it performs in other genres, I just cant accept it as hifi....may be that is what people mean when they say classical is demanding.

But the oher way round is possible...I mean if an equipment performs well only on Acoustic music and not all that great on other genres it MAY still be qualified as hifi...

Though people may argue that hifi should be transparent and neutral and hence perform on the merit of the music played through them, but genrally it doesnt happen....equipments can be biased and still be considered to be hifi.

Comment on why classical music may be used as a point of referent.

A few 'audiophiles' use classical music to 'evaluate' gear. This is because it is the 'purest' form of music.

Let me take an example - Dire STraits or Pink Floyd - I like them both, they both do feature on my 'reference list' of music that I use for evaluation, but I do not have any idea how any of their instruments sound - Fender Guitar - Bass Guitar - Drum set - Drum Machine etc.

However, with regards to a Piano or a Chello or a Violin, we do have a rough idea of the 'tone' of the instrument & can hear it live [which I do at least once a month if not more @ NCPA] and have a reasonable reference point of what the 'tone' of my set up should be.

To get the image depth & image height etc. is relatively easy, it is to get the 'tone' right that we go through hell.

Classical Music [western specially] does give us this opportunity. I specifically do not comment on Indian Classical Music, because it is never heard 'pure' i.e. without p.a. Always through a Shure SM 55 mic & some shit all cable into a gemini mixer and then finally out of a 'modified boom box' etc. Complete waste of time !!

BHAGWAN

P.S. I love Indian Classical Music - but very very difficult to get 'good recordings' I may have more than 300 - 350 cd's only of Indian Classical music in my collection. Sitar & Sarod.

"Audio" means sound/hearing and not audio equipment, and audiophile means one who loves sound (music).

Then every paanwalla & bediwalla who has a radio playing continiously, all day, would be an audiophile ?

If that were the case, then I surely will not call myself an 'audiophile' !!!
I do not smoke nor do I chew on any tobacco / pan [un-healthy].

Well said - Amp-Nut !!!!

BHAGWAN

Amp_Nut schrieb:

"Audio" means sound/hearing and not audio equipment, and audiophile means one who loves sound (music). Then every paanwalla & bediwalla who has a radio playing continiously, all day, would be an audiophile ? :.

Literally meaning - yes. If he is passionate enough about listening to music / sound, he is an audiophile. Just that this passion drives some of us to extremes of researching and buying not just well designed equipment but also some exotic cables, etc. Having good equipment does not make us any "superior" audiophile than a "paan - beedi" wala.

An artist is an artist whether paints oil on canvas and exhibits it in some great art gallery or just draws with a pencil on a piece of paper - he does not have to be da Vinci or M F Hussain to qualify as an artist. A singer need not sing opera in a concert hall, you can be a singer even if you sing in your bathroom.

But why are we debating?

An artist is an artist

Isin't there a Difference between a Doctor & A Quack ?

But why are we debating?

True..... we have digressed from the Topic of the Dehli meeting last Sunday.... somewhat ..

[quote="SDhawan"][quote="Amp_Nut"][quote]

But why are we debating ? [/quote]

Sir,

We are trying to address a very very simple point.

Music can be appreciated; And must surely be.
However, if audio is taken as a hobby, then it should have some sense of seriousness to it.

Just listening to music & enjoying it cannot be called a hobby ! There is a distinct difference, the line is fine, but it must be drawn.

Being an Audiophile is 'serious' stuff.
Being a music lover is universal, anyone & every one can be one. My wife is a music lover, listens to more music then I do, but she is not an audiophile. For her the stereo in her car is as good as FM on the TH set up is as good as Mukesh on the Paradigms, but I cannot go about my hobby in the same manner. I would not hear any of my CD's on either of the set ups that she uses.

Regards,

BHAGWAN