My new stereo setup.

Autor

Beitrag

zhopudey
Stammgast

#1 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 07:43

I figured I'll start a new thread to ask my new doubts

First, here's my setup:
Source - My PC, thru an EMU 0404 soundcard, playing music stored in lossless format.
Pre - A passive volume control, with Alps Blue velvet pot and neutrik rca sockets
Amp - McCormack DNA 125. (stock form)
Speakers - Dynaudioacoustics BM6
Cables from Viren. (Lyrita Audio)

Here are the pics -

http://www.hifi-foru...ad=1437&postID=16#16

The stands are made of granite, and weigh 55kg each.

Current limitations in my setup are -
Speakers close to each other (<4ft).
Speakers too close to rear wall (~ 1ft).
The stands wobble a bit, as my flooring is not perfectly level.
Floor is uncovered.

As for the sound, I found "unplugged" music to be phenomenal! Vocals, acoustic guitar, flutes...simply mindblowing. I am not worrying about soundstaging at the moment. I'll wait till I get rid of the crt, and get my LCD back.
But the biggest worry is...there is no bass!

I was expecting lots of boomy bass, but this is even worse

Kick drums just go "phat phat".

I'll put thick foam under the stands, as suggested by Bhagwan69. And I'll see if there are any rugs/carpets that I can afford. But what to do about the lack of bass? Could it be because the speakers haven't been broken in completely?

Arj
Inventar

#2 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 08:03

is it lack of bass or lack of enough bass..it is not so easy to judge the difference.

try playing Hotel California from Hell freezes over. the drums there should have a deep effect and should not go phat.

bass problems can abe anywhere from the source to the room so not so easy to investigate. but some things you can try are

1. move the speaker near to the wall
2. move the speaker away from it
3. loosely couple the speaker to the stand
4. tightly couple the speaker to the stand
5. try playing the same sound from a DVD player or another CD player (Walkman ?)

and then try to see what difference in sound occur. even if the bass does not improve you migh hit upon a better placement

if possible try to hear these speakers with a different amp from personal experience this can also be a very big difference (It is not about power).

[Beitrag von Arj am 14. Aug 2007, 08:06 bearbeitet]

zhopudey
Stammgast

#3 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 08:05

Thanks

Will try all these today evening.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#4 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 08:05

But the biggest worry is...there is no bass! I was expecting lots of boomy bass, but this is even worse Kick drums just go "phat phat".

I suspect two things:

1. Your passive pre-amp...the incoming signal to the amp could be too feeble. I have heard that passive preamps can cause heavy lack of dynamics...no experience though.

2. Your computer soundcard is again not driving the power amp (since the preamp is passive, I guess its almost seeing the power amp directly).
If you have a cheap DVDP (Philips, Sony..anything), try connecting it to your Preamp and see if dynamics improve.

Ultimately if nothing works then you may have to go ahead and buy an entry level preamp (should cost around 6-7k).
But lets not think about that now.

[Beitrag von abhi.pani am 14. Aug 2007, 08:08 bearbeitet]

abhi.pani
Inventar

#5 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 08:13

Speakers too close to rear wall (~ 1ft).

The fact that the speakers are soooo close to the wall but still you dont get adequate bass...I can only think of the "drive" being not enough. Cant doubt the power amp because it was here at my place and it was a notch above in "drive" than my Plinius.

Arj
Inventar

#6 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 08:14

abhis point of your pre amp could be quite spot on. your sound card is right now directly driving the power amp and it might not have enough juice to drive a tough load (No idea of the load of the DNA).

one way ot test is to play another source (Easier to get that than a pre amp)

zhopudey
Stammgast

#7 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 08:22

Ok, I'll check with my philips mini-compo.

zhopudey
Stammgast

#8 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 08:30

BTW, does volume have anything to do with drive? I keep the pot at around 10%-15%, and its loud enough for my casual listening. However, this means that I don't get fine control over the volume

I think I'll also try connecting my sound card directly to the amp.

zhopudey
Stammgast

#9 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 09:05

I found this thread at head-fi,

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=93716 Most people seem to actually lower the soundcard volume! So it seems my card can output the required 2V.
I'll check with my minicompo, and get back.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#10 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 09:15

zhopudey schrieb:

BTW, does volume have anything to do with drive? I keep the pot at around 10%-15%, and its loud enough for my casual listening. However, this means that I don't get fine control over the volume

I think I'll also try connecting my sound card directly to the amp.

That shouldnt be the case ideally with this power amp.
Its a high current amp so you should get adequate bass even at very low listening levels. Your amp is just not getting enough food to eat..so its starving

Connecting the Sound card is OK but dont know how far it will help unless you have a proper line level output from your sound card.

When I connect my Creative Zen to my integrated amp, I get a similar effect of total collapse in dynamics. This, irrespective of the fact that my amp has an in built preamp to support the power amp section.
I had also put it across on this forum and I got a reply that the source has to be of a high voltage variety (CDPs, DVDP) rather than a high current one (as with ipods and computer sound cards).

So start experimenting and let us know.

Arj
Inventar

#11 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 09:39

abhi.pani schrieb:

I had also put it across on this forum and I got a reply that the source has to be of a high voltage variety (CDPs, DVDP) rather than a high current one (as with ipods and computer sound cards).

So start experimenting and let us know.

actually it should be high current source to get the best out.

it is when the power capability of the source is not enough that the sound quality is not great simply because the Source is not able to handle the load of the power amp.

that is where active tube buffers come in which shield the source from the load.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#12 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 09:48

Arj schrieb:

actually it should be high current source to get the best out.

Or..it should be both

But I suppose most entry level CDPs have a high voltage drive (typically 2.8 Volts)..or am I missing something ??

Arj
Inventar

#13 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 10:42

they do have a high voltage..but not a capability of a high currrent.

What I am purting below is my perception hence Amp_Nut ji any comments you have are welcome !

eg if impedance is changing rapidly and output voltage of the CDP is kept constant, the source should still be capable of giving constant current 9To ensure constant power). in case its power suppply is not able to handle an active load like an amp its current can get starved and hence produce loss of dynamics/poor response in some frequencies.
the problem with most entry level sources is that their power supply is not robust (hence the lightweight DVDps) hence not able to maintian the same power across the output spectrum

abhi.pani
Inventar

#14 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 12:12

Arj schrieb:

Amp_nut Ji is busy in another thread nowadays (class A amplification thread)

...so let me see if I can put by 2 cents.

You are right that when the input impedance of the power amp is changing rapidly we need a high current device to catch up with it and provide it with constant power.

And thats the very reason we need an active preamp. It shields the CDP from seeing the impedance fluctuation at the power amp end and also it constantly tries to provide the power amp with constant power (i.e line level). It maintains this line level signal irrespective of what the input impedance is at that point of time. And thats the reason most preamps operates in class A mode so that its easy to catch up with the fluctuating power demands at the power amp.

Since the CDP anyway doesnt have to deal with the power amp its easy for it to maintain whatever is its default output signal strength.
Its a different thing that stronger the signal, higher the resolution..but then there is a basic requirement that needs to be met which the entry level CDPs do "IMO"

Arj
Inventar

#15 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 12:53

actually there are 3 options

1. Better CDP
2. Active pre amp
3. Active Tube buffer like the MF X10d which again provides a very easy load to the CDP.

zhopudey
Stammgast

#16 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 12:58

Any of these are available for a long trail period?

Arj
Inventar

#17 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 13:03

actually i do have an X10d which i usually use for my iPOD which is temporarily serving my car system.

so if you want you can borrow it to see the effect it has. that way we might get a better fix on your problem

zhopudey
Stammgast

#18 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 17:01

Tried the philips mincompo. No luck

The drums at the start of Feetwood Mac's Chain still went "phat phat". And I remember how they're supposed to sound like, as I had heard this track at Amp_Nut's place.

The pre-amp was still used, as the line out of the philips doesn't use its volume control. Next, I'll connect amp directly to sound card and try.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#19 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 17:23

zhopudey schrieb:

The pre-amp was still used, as the line out of the philips doesn't use its volume control. Next, I'll connect amp directly to sound card and try.

Since the volume control of your mini-compo was not working that means it was by-passing its own preamp and giving you a direct feed from its CDP. Basically, you somehow got to test out a active preamp.
I know it will work because another friend of mine uses a entry level preamp from Pulz/sonodyne (I dont remember exactly, but its one of them) along with the McCormack and drives a Dynaudio...he is extremely happy. BTW, he loves bass!!!

Neutral
Stammgast

#20 erstellt: 14. Aug 2007, 22:05

Well unfortunately, we get just the performance we paid for! I remember putting a post a little over a year ago on lack of dynamics in my then-new Pulz system.

When Junia brought over a good CD player, and I connected it directly to my power amp, the dynamics improved considerably.

My computer sound card can't optimally drive an audiophile system, but it remains due to cost reasons.

My brother's Sony minicompo is not any better as a source than my computer.

Zhopudey, u most probably will need a good source for dynamics. Or learn to live with what u have (computers sure are convenient and their tonality isn't poor). My friend's speakers in Chennai have 12" drivers, but the room doesn't shake! No prizes for guessing: the source is a computer

Manek
Inventar

#21 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 07:25

sorry got onto this thread late....

zhopudey....do you hear distortion when drums are played or just lack of bass ?

Computer sound card....the software you use(winamp, media player etc),equalizer settings on the flat mark ? if so try boosting the low frequency a bit from the software just to check if the bass gets deeper....

Manek.

zhopudey
Stammgast

#22 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 08:00

No distortion at all. Just a lack of bass

My altec lansing sub used to give more bass (very boomy of course).

All EQs are flat. Can't do any testing right now, as musical chairs is going on in my society on some horrible speakers

Will have to wait till they're done.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#23 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 08:06

zhopudey schrieb:

All EQs are flat. Can't do any testing right now, as musical chairs is going on in my society on some horrible speakers

Will have to wait till they're done.

Go attach your BM6 to the PA amp out there and see if you gain dynamics

....and then continue playing "hifi musical" chair..

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#24 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 08:09

This could be stupid...but check to see if the connection to the terminals have been reversed...

zhopudey
Stammgast

#25 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 08:10

Savyasaachi schrieb:

This could be stupid...but check to see if the connection to the terminals have been reversed...

I checked that

They're correct. Red to red, black to black.

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#26 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 08:18

How far are you sitting from the speakers...did you try toe in...did you shift listening places to check for bass humps in the room(room modes)...

Suggest that you just move to a corner and then strafe to the other corner of the room to check where you hear the bass...
how big is the room?

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#27 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 08:33

#25 created: Today, 08:10 quote PM Mail

Savyasaachi wrote:
This could be stupid...but check to see if the connection to the terminals have been reversed...

I checked that They're correct. Red to red, black to black.

Please try reversing the Red and Black wires, on ONE speaker only.

Does it increase or decrease the Bass ?

Do post back.

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#28 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 08:36

agree...there should

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Please try reversing the Red and Black wires, on ONE speaker only.

Does it increase or decrease the Bass ?

Do post back.

be immediate noticeable difference

zhopudey
Stammgast

#29 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 09:33

Didn't hear any noticible diff on reversing the phase. However, when I placed the speakers facing each other and played a mono track, the sound cancelled out. So, they were in phase earlier.

reignofchaos
Stammgast

#30 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 10:16

Preamp issue guaranteed cos the same soundcard sounded excellent at my place with a NAD integrated.

Arj
Inventar

#31 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 10:19

I think most NADs have an active preamp...so the original doubt on sources power remains

zhopudey
Stammgast

#32 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 10:20

reignofchaos schrieb:

Preamp issue guaranteed cos the same soundcard sounded excellent at my place with a NAD integrated.

I've connected the sound card directly at the moment.

reignofchaos
Stammgast

#33 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 10:20

Arj schrieb:

I think most NADs have an active preamp...so the original doubt on sources power remains :D

Yup... thats what I'm saying... the source is not strong enough to drive the power amp thru a passive pre. I guess it needs an active preamp.

Manek
Inventar

#34 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 12:00

whats the freq response of the bm6 ? are we sure we arent asking it to do more than it was built for ?

Manek.

zhopudey
Stammgast

#35 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 13:43

Anyone has a active preamp that I could try out?

Arj
Inventar

#36 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 14:00

do you have a DVD player at home ?

if so try that as a source and check if the bass response is any different.

also try any of your friends MP3 players.

zhopudey
Stammgast

#37 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 14:04

I tried with my Philips minicompo. But it's line outs don't use its preamp.

Arj
Inventar

#38 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 14:29

Zhopudey, which city are u based in ?

If in bangalore you can borrow my MF X10D for a couple of days..if the problem is because of the source getting overloaded, that will isolate it from the Power amp load

zhopudey
Stammgast

#39 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 14:35

I'm in mumbai.

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#40 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 16:28

Savyasaachi schrieb:

How far are you sitting from the speakers?????...
did you try toe in?????...
did you shift listening places to check for bass humps in the room(room modes)...???

Suggest that you just move to a corner and then strafe to the other corner of the room to check where you hear the bass...did you try this?????
how big is the room??????

zhopudey
Stammgast

#41 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 16:42

Its a near field setup. Am sitting 4ft from each spk. Room is 9x11. And the problem is the same at diff positions in the room.
Guess I will have to get a good mic and check the in-room freq response. And I thought I was done spending for some time at least!

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#42 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 17:02

Try moving it briefly into another room and check to see the freq response...
did you strafe( as in move sideways while facing the speakers) from one corner to the other? did you hear any differnece?

[Beitrag von Savyasaachi am 15. Aug 2007, 17:03 bearbeitet]

zhopudey
Stammgast

#43 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 17:13

Ohh damn! I got some bass when I stood in the corner!

So maybe its a problem of room nodes. I'll buy a mic tomm, and check freq and impulse response at my sitting position.

Neutral
Stammgast

#44 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 19:29

zhopudey schrieb:

Do try sitting closer to a wall or a room corner. Bass is stronger there, but weaker in the centre of a room. I think that the advice of an active 'pre' is good. It will compensate for the limited dyamics of a soundcard. Do request a Mumbai forum member to lend u a pre over a weekend. It will allow u to confirm if that is the way to go.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#45 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 20:36

zhopudey schrieb:

Ohh damn! I got some bass when I stood in the corner!

So maybe its a problem of room nodes. I'll buy a mic tomm, and check freq and impulse response at my sitting position.

Dear Zhopudey,
There is always a huge exaggeration of bass frequencies in the corners but thats not the bass you should be looking at. The BM6 has a freq response of 43hz - 20khz at +-3db which is very decent and you should get some real good bass at your listening position.

The only big problem in your case is "absence of active preamp". Thats all...

Dont spend money on microphone and all...save some money and buy an entry level preamp and you are done.

I have lived with that speaker and tried the amp as well...they are supposed to give you outstanding bass!!!

Its the missing preamp...nothing else!!

[Beitrag von abhi.pani am 15. Aug 2007, 20:37 bearbeitet]

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#46 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 21:01

abhi.pani schrieb:

zhopudey schrieb:

Ohh damn! I got some bass when I stood in the corner!

So maybe its a problem of room nodes. I'll buy a mic tomm, and check freq and impulse response at my sitting position.

Don't blame the preamp...
blame the sound card...or maye the positioning..or a mix of both..

Infact, when i tested my DIY setup, i was using the mini out from my onboard crappy soundcard as input to the amp whihc would then go through a selector switch and then to the ALPS pot ..to the crossover board(through opamps) and then to the actual power amplifier board...

and you were there when you heard my passive pre system..plenty of bass slam.. However, i will give you that when you heard it , i had the DVD player connected directly to the amplifier...there was a difference going from the sound card to the DVD player in terms of drive for sure , but major improvement in SQ as well..
I suggest, trying it with a different CD player or DVD player whic has at least 2V swing at the RCA output..I would prefer 2.5V to 4 V..but such swing you usually get only in car audio CD players..

[Beitrag von Savyasaachi am 15. Aug 2007, 21:03 bearbeitet]

abhi.pani
Inventar

#47 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 21:04

Don't blame the preamp...
blame the sound card...

I am blaming the preamp because it has already been clarified by reignofchaos that the soundcard is good.

reignofchaos schrieb:

Preamp issue guaranteed cos the same soundcard sounded excellent at my place with a NAD integrated.

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#48 erstellt: 15. Aug 2007, 21:16

Still doesn't make sense...if there is an impedance ismatch from the sound card out to the pot resistance, then there woudl probably be a decrese in volume..since there is only a lack of bass i am kinda stumped ...try playing around with speaker placement and listening position a bit more before you go off and buy an active preamp...btw, what is the value of your ALPS pot?

Arj
Inventar

#49 erstellt: 16. Aug 2007, 06:00

i would agree with Sachi.

Our current understanding of the problem is that the source is not able to handle the load of the amp hence not able to supply enough power. and this is most probably occurring due to the passive preamp which cannot act as a shield.

now this is only a hypothesis which needs to be tested..the problem very well could be something else.

hence before buying anything try to borrow a good source and test this out. you can also test this out with a good active pre amp.

please dont buy anything more unless you are sure of what the problem is!! that process is an endless moneypit.

Abhis point on the corner bass is spot on. a corner gives a 6dB boost to any sound and that is what you are hearing. maybe you can see if you can put your PC in a corner of the room and try with that setup.

I am really not sure if it is the truly deep bass you are missing out or the lower mid bass (the 50-100 Hz). that is very important to give a feeling of Body to any sound.

maybe you can download a test cd which Amp_nut had mentioned long back and try it out to see what you are really missing out on
you will find it

Here

[Beitrag von Arj am 16. Aug 2007, 06:02 bearbeitet]

abhi.pani
Inventar

#50 erstellt: 16. Aug 2007, 06:07

I just found McCormack DNA-125 has an input impedance of 100kOhms, which is pretty decent. Its not a tough load by any stretch. But it definitely needs a stronger signal to amplify than a basic source component gives out...especially for the kind of music Zhops listens to

Arj
Inventar

#51 erstellt: 16. Aug 2007, 06:10

decent or not we will only know once we know the output impedance of the soundcard

i think the usual ratio is 10X ?? only our Technical and DIY enthusiats will be able to answer that one authoritatively