Ribbon tweeters

herculepirate schrieb:

I agree ... its not the maintenance I am complaining about... Its the price increase for no technological advancement... Its like the Govt increasing fuel prices to cover deficiencies elsewhere... HP

I have an opinion of this one - maybe this is the incorrect forum for it - but I want fuel in India to be at par with Euro Prices.
Why should Drinks & Cigarettes & Fuel be cheaper in India that what it is in Europe.
We could start a non audio 'offtopic' discussion on this one - elsewhere...

To get back to Cadence - the cost exist because the ES Panel needs to be replaced - labour & transport cost is involved.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

I have an opinion of this one - maybe this is the incorrect forum for it - but I want fuel in India to be at par with Euro Prices. Why should Drinks & Cigarettes & Fuel be cheaper in India that what it is in Europe.

Then the buying power of the Indian Rupee should be also at par with the Euro, Pound or US-Dollar. Just an example: for the price of one liter of fuel I get a good meal in a middle class restaurant. If a liter of fuel in western countries would cost the same like a good meal in a middle class restaurant the economies over there would have collapsed already. I find fuel prices in India hopelessly overpriced as compared to the cost of living....for what reason ever. Still it's incredible to see how many vehicles
drive around.

Sorry for Off Topic.
Jochen

goolimangala schrieb:

bhagwan69 schrieb: I have an opinion of this one - maybe this is the incorrect forum for it - but I want fuel in India to be at par with Euro Prices. Why should Drinks & Cigarettes & Fuel be cheaper in India that what it is in Europe. Then the buying power of the Indian Rupee should be also at par with the Euro, Pound or US-Dollar. Just an example: for the price of one liter of fuel I get a good meal in a middle class restaurant. If a liter of fuel in western countries would cost the same like a good meal in a middle class restaurant the economies over there would have collapsed already. I find fuel prices in India hopelessly overpriced as compared to the cost of living....for what reason ever. Still it's incredible to see how many vehicles drive around. Sorry for Off Topic. Jochen

That was a good one Jochen

bhagwan69 schrieb:

According to me if one is having fun w/ the speaker setup then one is getting the essence of the music (the PRaT, soundstage width, height, bass, high freq extension, etc) then nothing more is needed. So, I'm not sure why such a setup would not be considered SOTA?? There may be lots of speakers that I may have fun with - however they are not SOTA ! I may like 'coloured' sound & a particular set up may do that for me - not necessary that it becomes SOTA. Prime Example is Sonus Faber. Very coloured sound - great musically - but not SOTA for sure. Would I buy the Stradivari [if I had the place] ? Sure - I love the tone - but it is NOT SOTA for sure.... The Marten Momento is SOTA The RT [some of the models] are SOTA I could go on - it needs to be 'experienced' Current flavour of the month [year actually] is Tidal. These are SOTA products. SQ - SQ - SQ that is all it is about - an 'appropriate' balance - personal - for each his own.... :P

Bhagwan, this post has left me a little confused.
Let me put it the other way, "What is it that a high quality speaker should lack to be NOT called as sota ?"
Since you have already said that a speaker could be very good, highly satisfying musically but still not SOTA, so there must be something that you would be looking for before awarding it the SOTA tag, what is it ? And I am sure you can make out a SOTA vs non-SOTA even in a double blind test

Since you have already said that a speaker could be very good, highly satisfying musically but still not SOTA, so there must be something that you would be looking for before awarding it the SOTA tag, what is it ? And I am sure you can make out a SOTA vs non-SOTA even in a double blind test

Sir, I cannot;
It is an art that has to be 'inculcated'
Takes a lot of time & effort.
I am still very far from the holy grail.
I have lots of steps to climb.......

However, to try and address the question that you have raised;

When a product gets a SOTA tag [in my books] it has to play as good as I may have heard. The only boundry is my exposure - so SOTA for you may be higher than SOTA for me...

I remember Marten Design Coltrane was SOTA for me for several years back - 2003. Audiaz was SOTA for me [also 5 + years back].
RT Merak & Sheraton was SOTA for me - also 5 + years back.
There may be many many more....

Thanks Bhagwan, that was a nice explanation. I get the idea.
However I do not get why you cannot differentiate a SOTA vs non-SOTA in a DBT, since you are trusting your ears even in a non-DBT. After all if you hear a speaker which sounds as good as you have heard, whether you are looking at it or not should not matter ?

Dear Bombaywalla,
The idea of enjoying music on a good hifi setup with all the aspects like PRAT etc etc is granted.
SOTA is a higher degree of the same but taken to level way beyond ordinary hifi.eg
Kaiser Acoustics in the Kaiser Demo room
The Tidal Sunray in Munich 2010
The Marten/LARS setup in Munich 2009.
Dynaudio Consequence UE.

Of the products I do, I do not think it is fair to list them on the thread, do forgive me.

Deaf.

Bhagwan,
Please excuse my ignorance, but what are SOTA speakers. Never heard about them. I also can't find any website. I know SOTA only as turntable manufacturer.
Regards,
Jochen

goolimangala schrieb:

Bhagwan, Please excuse my ignorance, but what are SOTA speakers. Never heard about them. I also can't find any website. I know SOTA only as turntable manufacturer. Regards, Jochen

SOTA = State of the ART

square_wave schrieb:

goolimangala schrieb: Bhagwan, Please excuse my ignorance, but what are SOTA speakers. Never heard about them. I also can't find any website. I know SOTA only as turntable manufacturer. Regards, Jochen SOTA = State of the ART :)

Oh Thanks Square Wave,

I'm just not familiar with all the english abbreviations. To be frank I just hate all the abbreviations which have become so popular since internet is dominating the world. For me it's just laziness not to write the complete word or expression. But perhaps I'm just too old fashioned. I am always trying to write complete words, phrases and sentences but sometimes I discover, that nowadays I use abbreviations myself. Shame on me

Jochen

Hi Jochen,

Actually it was the Turntable company SOTA who was responsible for the term being used in HIFI.
SOTA was a Canadian studio loudspeaker manufacturer too,used in prestigious installs like the IMAX mastering studios.
I think the owner was a gifted acoustician named Claude Fortier.
Deaf

deaf schrieb:

Hi Jochen, Actually it was the Turntable company SOTA who was responsible for the term being used in HIFI. SOTA was a Canadian studio loudspeaker manufacturer too,used in prestigious installs like the IMAX mastering studios. I think the owner was a gifted acoustician named Claude Fortier. Deaf

Thanks deaf to shed some light on this too. I was really confused and thinking that you all are talking about a speaker company.

Jochen

goolimangala schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: goolimangala schrieb: Bhagwan, Please excuse my ignorance, but what are SOTA speakers. Never heard about them. I also can't find any website. I know SOTA only as turntable manufacturer. Regards, Jochen SOTA = State of the ART :) Oh Thanks Square Wave, I'm just not familiar with all the english abbreviations. To be frank I just hate all the abbreviations which have become so popular since internet is dominating the world. For me it's just laziness not to write the complete word or expression. But perhaps I'm just too old fashioned. I am always trying to write complete words, phrases and sentences but sometimes I discover, that nowadays I use abbreviations myself. Shame on me Jochen

Ach, Jochen, dass macht nicht! Zeit ist Geld wert....

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Current flavour of the month [year actually] is Tidal. These are SOTA products.

--> this is your opinion. And, you have a lot of other people stating the same (as I've read on Audiogon).

bhagwan69 schrieb:

When a product gets a SOTA tag [in my books] it has to play as good as I may have heard. The only boundry is my exposure - so SOTA for you may be higher than SOTA for me... I remember Marten Design Coltrane was SOTA for me for several years back - 2003. Audiaz was SOTA for me [also 5 + years back]. RT Merak & Sheraton was SOTA for me - also 5 + years back.

deaf schrieb:

Dear Bombaywalla, The idea of enjoying music on a good hifi setup with all the aspects like PRAT etc etc is granted. SOTA is a higher degree of the same but taken to level way beyond ordinary hifi.eg Kaiser Acoustics in the Kaiser Demo room The Tidal Sunray in Munich 2010 The Marten/LARS setup in Munich 2009. Dynaudio Consequence UE.

OK, I get it - SOTA, according to you guys, is a personal opinion. Others might agree or disagree with your opinion....

BTW, In my opinion, if you are listening to music with the correct PRaT, soundstage width, height, depth, high freq extension, bass tonality (as written in my post addressed to Deaf) then that is NOT mere "ordinary hifi". In this case, one has achieved a significant amount & I would not be off-base in stating that such a setup has reached the pinnacle (or in your words - has reached SOTA) of music reproduction.
Of course, you are free to disagree.....

Bombaywalla - for a person that is used to listening to a Bose Audio Set up - the B & O will be SOTA.
For a guy that has a Quad Diamond [at least that is his exposure level] a B & W 800 series speaker will [may be] be SOTA for him.

Basically, SOTA is = state of the art - so if any particular set up is better than the others that he may be exposed to, it becomes SOTA for him....

This is all I wanted to say.
My SOTA [rather SOTA for me] has changed a lot over the years.
I still love some of the speakers I had mentioned, in my earlier post, however they have been 'out performed' by others.
I forgot to add Ascendo to that list....

So it must be true that as he claims, my Brother in law has a SOTA system as well... it has 3500 PMPO 3 cd/dvd/mp3 changer, lots of equalisers and a special button to "Turbo charge" the music and lots and lots of LED lights ..real Bling Bling

Leavong aside the kidding, as per definition

The state of the art is the highest level of development, as of a device, technique, or scientific field, achieved at a particular time. It also applies to the level of development (as of a device, procedure, process, technique, or science) reached at any particular time usually as a result of modern methods.

what is interesting is modern methods which means process and not components. that means SETs can never be SOTA ?
Nor pure class A ?

so one of the Lyngdorf Steinway systems would definitely be SOTA..but my Push pull amp with regular speakers with regular drivers can not be claimed to be SOTA..but I am sure there is a rather substantial grey area also existing.

From what I have noticed, Hi fidelity gear is separated more by “belief systems” rather than “technology”. Different creators purveying state of the art gear which is a statement of their belief systems. Each of them pushing the limits within their own “belief system” vertical.

In such a scenario, I do not see why “SET” or ‘HORNS” or anything else cannot be called as State of the ART !

“State of the Art” gear needs to push the limits within a certain belief system based on sold engineering principles and creative and artistic compromises. It need to create something beautiful to behold !

There is no gear in this world which is everyone’s cup of tea. Such an animal does not exist. Hence disagreements are okay. But a mediocre gear is never “SOTA”.

square_wave schrieb:

In such a scenario, I do not see why “SET” or ‘HORNS” or anything else cannot be called as State of the ART ! “State of the Art” gear needs to push the limits within a certain belief system based on sold engineering principles and creative and artistic compromises. It need to create something beautiful to behold ! There is no gear in this world which is everyone’s cup of tea. Such an animal does not exist. Hence disagreements are okay. But a mediocre gear is never “SOTA”.

Yes & No;

1st part is yes - Horns & Set.

2nd part is No.

Let me explain; [at least try to put my point of view across]

If I am a listener of Horns & Set's
Then in my 'domain' a set up that plays up to my expectations or boundries is SOTA for me.
So if a Solid State & Dynamic [audio set up listener] listens to my SOTA he may not like it.....
The same may be true for me - when I audition his set up !

The question of 'mediocre' set up being SOTA.
It always is [yes not a typo]
Until one move up - all set ups are 'relative' & what may be 'average' for you may be reference level for me - cause I have never heard better....
Like a buy that listens to what ARJ mentioned - 3600 W PMPO with 'turbo' will be 'blown' away when he listens to a PSB + NAD 320 BEE etc...
It is all very very relative....
At least, that is my observation....
What I liked in Audio 10 years back & what I liked 5 years back & what I like now are so very different....
All the boundries keep altering - for me they do - I wonder what it is for the rest ?

so one of the Lyngdorf Steinway systems would definitely be SOTA..but my Push pull amp with regular speakers with regular drivers can not be claimed to be SOTA..but I am sure there is a rather substantial grey area also existing.

Sir,

If you heard the S.L. set up & liked it & believed that it was the best you have ever heard - then it is SOTA for you.

However, if you are of the firm belief that the Push Pull & Speaker that you have - plays 'better' to your ears - then that is SOTA for you !!
Simple...

Sir, please do understand and accept that SOTA is very very personal.
What is SOTA for me, does not have to be SOTA for you.
It is about your personal horizon.
We are all [at least I am] pushing the envelope... to see how far it goes & how much 'better' [satisfying] the 'final' result is. Audio Gear + Room + Listening ability.... [yes - this too has to be worked & improved on] !!

i think we are talking 2 different things.
SOTA..is State of the Art. Cutting edge in technology. i would not like to cofuse it with "ideal" system.

I might like my system more than a SOTA system ..and Vice versa.

problem is defining SOTA. Lyngsdorf OR WEISS Dacs based systems can be SOTA but my traditional setup can be nice but not a SOTA

anyway these are semantics...and that can take the discussion away ..and we are anyway really OT

bombaywalla schrieb:

goolimangala schrieb: square_wave schrieb: goolimangala schrieb: Bhagwan, Please excuse my ignorance, but what are SOTA speakers. Never heard about them. I also can't find any website. I know SOTA only as turntable manufacturer. Regards, Jochen SOTA = State of the ART :) Oh Thanks Square Wave, I'm just not familiar with all the english abbreviations. To be frank I just hate all the abbreviations which have become so popular since internet is dominating the world. For me it's just laziness not to write the complete word or expression. But perhaps I'm just too old fashioned. I am always trying to write complete words, phrases and sentences but sometimes I discover, that nowadays I use abbreviations myself. Shame on me Jochen Ach, Jochen, dass macht nicht! Zeit ist Geld wert.... ;)

Zeit ist Geld. Stimmt! Da ich aber nicht an Abkürzungen gewöhnt bin (Du weisst in der deutschen Sprache benutzt man kaum Abkürzungen)dauert es für mich länger eine Abkürzung zu tippen, als den ganzen Begriff auszuschreiben .

Gruß
Jochen

Arj schrieb:

i think we are talking 2 different things. SOTA..is State of the Art. Cutting edge in technology. i would not like to cofuse it with "ideal" system.

There may be a 'cutting edge' technology that may be present - just to mention an example - ion tweeter - Goolimangala loves it, I do not. It sure is SOTA [from a technological stand point] but for me - it never floated my boat - neither on the Accapella or on the Lansch.....

So, to get back, SOTA may be 'advanced' [technologically] but is it 'satisfying' musically ? This is an important question that I keep asking myself...

Digital Amplifiers are SOTA - however are they 'fun' to listen to ?
Computer Playback is SOTA - for me - at least;
Is it musically satisfying ?
Is it as good if not better than CD's ?
This to me is SOTA.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Arj schrieb: i think we are talking 2 different things. SOTA..is State of the Art. Cutting edge in technology. i would not like to cofuse it with "ideal" system. There may be a 'cutting edge' technology that may be present - just to mention an example - ion tweeter - Goolimangala loves it, I do not. It sure is SOTA [from a technological stand point] but for me - it never floated my boat - neither on the Accapella or on the Lansch..... So, to get back, SOTA may be 'advanced' [technologically] but is it 'satisfying' musically ? This is an important question that I keep asking myself...

Just to be precise: I said that I liked the two different ACapella speakers with Ion tweeters which I heard on two occasions with two totally different sources and amps in two different rooms. The performance on both occasions was pretty good. I did not like the Lansche speaker and I never said that I like ion tweeters in general.
To come back to State of the Art systems. As far as I can remember I have heard three performances which were for me State of the Art: Audio Physic Medea with Pass Aleph, Etalon reference speakers with reference integrated amp. And recently Blumenhofer Genuin3 with a complete Einstein set-up. But I also haven't heard so many systems yet.
Regards,
Jochen

bhagwan69 schrieb:

There may be a 'cutting edge' technology that may be present - just to mention an example - ion tweeter - Goolimangala loves it, I do not. It sure is SOTA [from a technological stand point] but for me - it never floated my boat - neither on the Accapella or on the Lansch..... So, to get back, SOTA may be 'advanced' [technologically] but is it 'satisfying' musically ? This is an important question that I keep asking myself...

Well Semantics like SOTA are only about classification and not about the sound . it is completely different from Enjoyment. there can be SOTA equipment which are enjoyable, Ugly, sounding bad and sounding heavenly...as there can be with Non SOTA.

so wether its good or Bad, Digital amplification, HDD based sources, streamed music etc could still be SOTA

Arj schrieb:

bhagwan69 schrieb: There may be a 'cutting edge' technology that may be present - just to mention an example - ion tweeter - Goolimangala loves it, I do not. It sure is SOTA [from a technological stand point] but for me - it never floated my boat - neither on the Accapella or on the Lansch..... So, to get back, SOTA may be 'advanced' [technologically] but is it 'satisfying' musically ? This is an important question that I keep asking myself... Well Semantics like SOTA are only about classification and not about the sound . it is completely different from Enjoyment. there can be SOTA equipment which are enjoyable, Ugly, sounding bad and sounding heavenly...as there can be with Non SOTA. so wether its good or Bad, Digital amplification, HDD based sources, streamed music etc could still be SOTA

Are we talking about State of the art device or State of the art sound :? As far as I am concerned, I dont think discussing SOTA device is worth the time spent on the term SOTA here in the thread. But if it is about SOTA sound, we can have another forum around it .

Abhi, if we are talking sound, it should be Sought-after sound and not SOTA ;).. 'Cause then it would be Sorta bright sounding

BTW, In my opinion, if you are listening to music with the correct PRaT, soundstage width, height, depth, high freq extension, bass tonality (as written in my post addressed to Deaf) then that is NOT mere "ordinary hifi". In this case, one has achieved a significant amount & I would not be off-base in stating that such a setup has reached the pinnacle (or in your words - has reached SOTA) of music reproduction.

Bombaywalla, I am surprised that you have placed soundstage so high in your list of criteria to define SOTA sound !!

Isnt it true that Soundstage is nothing more than what Arj calls "Special Effect" ? We all do enjoy soundstaging effects but after all, in more than 98% of the recording it has zero correlation with the actual performance and is purely a function of the imagination of a mixing engineer. There is no way to do a reference check on this attribute. It is also subjective as one may like his stage differently laid out than someone else. I am a bit perplexed here .
You think this takes the setup to the Pinnacle of music reproduction .

Additionally, I do agree that PRAT is very important and most human ears can differentiate music with different PRAT factors and also identify which one sounds "correct".
But isnt it also true that good PRAT is a given when we are talking about a properly setup high end audio system ?

I always thought Tone, Timbre, Dynamics(Macro and Micro) and Resolution are the things which defines the realism a system is able to convey. When I say realism, I am comparing the systems ability to convey the sound of real instruments. And this is a fixed reference as we all know. The fact that every system has a different tonal balance and have different dynamics and resolution means that they are close to the real thing to varying degrees. Isnt this a much more important criteria to be measured to define SOTA sound ?
Am I off base here ?

P.S : While tones are also altered to some degree in studios but most decent recordings are very acceptable in this regard IMO.

What happened to Ribbon Tweeters....????



HP

herculepirate schrieb:

What happened to Ribbon Tweeters....???? HP

Later .

Abhi, as a Soundstage Enthusiast / FREAK, I have only this to say on why Soundstaging needs to be a TOP Priority for Stereophonic reproduction:

Soundstaging is the ONLY... I repeat ONLY attribute for which STEREO ( ie 2 Of Everything in the Entire Recording and Replay chain) is required.

PRAT, Tone, Timbre, Dynamics(Macro and Micro) Resolution and EVERTHING else can be delivered by a SINGLE Channel ( Monophonic ) system.

If the entire industry, and You too, as a consumer have practically DOUBLED your spend ONLY for Soundstaging/Stereo, should it not be the VERY TOP MOST IMPORTANT criteria for reproduction ???



HP Thanks for the reminder ... but the originator of this thread does not seem to mind ...

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Abhi, as a Soundstage Enthusiast / FREAK, I have only this to say on why Soundstaging needs to be a TOP Priority for Stereophonic reproduction: Soundstaging is the ONLY... I repeat ONLY attribute for which STEREO ( ie 2 Of Everything in the Entire Recording and Replay chain) is required. PRAT, Tone, Timbre, Dynamics(Macro and Micro) Resolution and EVERTHING else can be delivered by a SINGLE Channel ( Monophonic ) system. If the entire industry, and You too, as a consumer have practically DOUBLED your spend ONLY for Soundstaging, should it not be the VERY TOP MOST IMPORTANT criteria for reproduction ???

Agreed that we all do stereo to get that 3D effect but where is the reference ? On what parameters does one measure the right soundstage vs the wrong one ?
Soundstage is after all one of the many parameters that a high fidelity system accomplishes but the fact that music is made out of instruments and that is exactly why we own hifi in the first place, isnt it the first priority to get the instruments right ?

What is this discussion all about

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Soundstaging is the ONLY... I repeat ONLY attribute for which STEREO ( ie 2 Of Everything in the Entire Recording and Replay chain) is required.

True...I think Abhi's question is not about testing the equipment (or the room's) abilities wrt soundstage - but about where it stands as a priority when it comes to listening to Music (something that we are expected to do with audio equipments ..right ? )

Now we know Abhi's priority is PRAT and Amp_Nut's priority is Stage....peace...

If I pay Rs 2.5 Lakhs for a 3D TV, it would be my TOP priority to get a Superb 3D picture.

Colour purity, image sharpness, etc would be secondary.....

Amp_Nut schrieb:

If I pay Rs 2.5 Lakhs for a 3D TV, it would be my TOP priority to get a Superb 3D picture. Colour purity, image sharpness, etc would be secondary.....

If all TVs starting from 5k onwards are 3D TV, then ? Why did you pay more ?

Unfortunately all of this is not Black and White but shades of Grey...1 Channel for PRAT is an extreme case !
Soundstaging is no doubt important , but that does not mean that only soundstage will make you happy..and inasmuch as I would like evrything to be perfect, since this is a real world and I have to compromise on something I would rather compromise a little on the soundstage to get a better vocal quality and more nunces of music rather than the other way around.

and of course i would not want all the instruments playing on a stage right on top of my nose !!

Amp_Nut schrieb:

If I pay Rs 2.5 Lakhs for a 3D TV, it would be my TOP priority to get a Superb 3D picture. Colour purity, image sharpness, etc would be secondary.....

AN, you Paid more only for the 3D... not everyone pays just for a soundstage in audio !

herculepirate schrieb:

What happened to Ribbon Tweeters....???? HP

ROTFL!!
you had to ask H-P!!

abhi.pani schrieb:

BTW, In my opinion, if you are listening to music with the correct PRaT, soundstage width, height, depth, high freq extension, bass tonality (as written in my post addressed to Deaf) then that is NOT mere "ordinary hifi". In this case, one has achieved a significant amount & I would not be off-base in stating that such a setup has reached the pinnacle (or in your words - has reached SOTA) of music reproduction. Bombaywalla, I am surprised that you have placed soundstage so high in your list of criteria to define SOTA sound !!

Abhi, one can optimize one's system to get correct tone, timbre, dynamics & resolution but have all the instruments & the artist playing on top of each other. Is such a situation correct?? Would such a system be considered SOTA sound by you?? I think not!

abhi.pani schrieb:

Isnt it true that Soundstage is nothing more than what Arj calls "Special Effect" ? We all do enjoy soundstaging effects but after all, in more than 98% of the recording it has zero correlation with the actual performance and is purely a function of the imagination of a mixing engineer.

while is it true that a mixing engineer can wreak havoc of the soundstage, for the genres of Jazz & classical the mixing engineers are very careful to preserve the live soundstage in the recorded entity. Arj & you might consider soundstage as a "special effect" but I certainly do not. Without a proper soundstage music is not real to me. Even more so if you listen to classical music. By golly, you BETTER have a good soundstage other switch the music off!
Consider this: if you had correct tone, timbre, dynamics & resolution but the instruments & the artist playing on top of each other would you get a sense of realism??? Most likely not! So, soundstage plays an important part towards a playback experience that trends towards realism.

abhi.pani schrieb:

Additionally, I do agree that PRAT is very important and most human ears can differentiate music with different PRAT factors and also identify which one sounds "correct". But isnt it also true that good PRAT is a given when we are talking about a properly setup high end audio system ?

LOL! this is one criteria that most systems do not have! It is FAR from given..... You would be very foolish to assume this, if I may be permitted to write this.

The acronym (sorry Goolimangala!) PRaT is a very loaded one & it has deep meaning. You have, I'm afraid, glossed over it rather casually. Do some research & figure out what PRaT stands for & what the implications of these words are to a 2-ch system.

abhi.pani schrieb:

I always thought Tone, Timbre, Dynamics(Macro and Micro) and Resolution are the things which defines the realism a system is able to convey. When I say realism, I am comparing the systems ability to convey the sound of real instruments. And this is a fixed reference as we all know. The fact that every system has a different tonal balance and have different dynamics and resolution means that they are close to the real thing to varying degrees. Isnt this a much more important criteria to be measured to define SOTA sound ? Am I off base here ?

According to me, you are off-base here. See my comments a few lines above. Realism includes a soundstage.
According to you soundstage & tone/timbre/dynamics/res are mutually exclusive. They are NOT!
A system unable to generate a correct soundstage will almost certainly unable to generate correct tone/timbre/dynamics/res. OTOH, a system with good timbre, tone, dynamics & resolution will not automatically give you a realistic playback experience. I've seen this too many times to know otherwise.

OK, ribbon tweeters it is.
More and more top loudspeaker products are moving towards the planar / ribbon tweeters.
Ones which are dynamic SOTA are doing diamond Tweeters or Scan Ring Radiators.
SOTA Full range planar, only one has totally convinced me.Let be known that it is not from an English speaking country.

SOTA goes beyond hifi like I earlier said.
It is like,
The room and your environment becomes one with the system. It energies the room and transports you to the same plane as the performance. That is SOTA. You are there.
Bhagwan, like LIVE TO TELL by Madonna on the setup we did. The room, system and you are like one entity, suddenly there you are, washed all over by the music. Hifi just does not matter.

Deaf.

Approach 1:

If you'll get everything correct...dynamics, transients, phase, linear freq.resp, etc.,...the result will be a very good soundstage. The type of loudspeaker (dynamic, full-range, Electrostatic, MBL type, etc.,) will have an impact on the nature of soundstage, regardless...you will have a good stage.

The challenge is in getting all the fundamentals right. Once you have it right, you will be rewarded with a an excellent stage...but it is not very easy to achieve this.

Further the room does impact your stage to a very large extent...especially at loud volumes.

Approach 2:

A point to be noted - There are products that - through electronic processing alters these fundamentals - to create a sense of Sound-stage. The stage might be accurate or nice....however the sound is no longer in its original form and hence not captivating and fails to convey the emotional equation.


My personal opinion :

When a product or system is built. The primary objective should not be a sound-stage, but the fundamentals of acoustic reproduction. Once you get these fundamentals correct, the soundstage will anyway fall in place automatically.

But trying to tweak a setup, purely based on Sound-Stage, would be like "trial-n-error" approach and not a "what is the true scientific problem" approach.

Well...you might be successful, on either approaches. But probably you are going to forced to make a compromise, because the "perfect" system does not exist.

This is where personal prioties kicks in and fights begin ....

deaf schrieb:

The room, system and you are like one entity, suddenly there you are, washed all over by the music. Hifi just does not matter. Deaf.

This is very very 'rare'
The room is the biggest frontier.
We never get that...
All said, that set up has been 'dis-mantled' & speakers were sold to S. Korea.
The pre amplifier was sent to Japan & a brand new - replacement is in its place.
No speaker is there - as yet.
I look forward to the new audio gear in that same 800 ++ sq. ft. room. Should be fun to set up - again...

The Room does matter.....However, majority of the audiophile blame the room, when actually thier problem is caused by thier own equipment (mainly the power amp !!).

Even in a small room it is possible to get a decent-to-good stage, without affecting the fundamentals.....provided your equipments are good-enugh and you are not playing at crazy volumes.

I have done quite a few experiments this front...

Regards
Siva.

sivat schrieb:

The Room does matter.....However, majority of the audiophile blame the room, when actually thier problem is caused by thier own equipment (mainly the power amp !!).

This is really interesting. Sivat I gues this is primarily the synergy between Speaker-Amp ? or did you mean the amp in isolation (To the extent you can isolate it in a system)

bhagwan69 schrieb:

deaf schrieb: The room, system and you are like one entity, suddenly there you are, washed all over by the music. Hifi just does not matter. Deaf. This is very very 'rare' images/smilies/insane.gif

I know that is why it is SOTA.

Arj schrieb:

sivat schrieb: The Room does matter.....However, majority of the audiophile blame the room, when actually thier problem is caused by thier own equipment (mainly the power amp !!). This is really interesting. Sivat I gues this is primarily the synergy between Speaker-Amp ? or did you mean the amp in isolation (To the extent you can isolate it in a system)

I'm not sure Synergy is the correct term. Primarily I have observed these are limiation of the power amp. Most commercially available speakers do present a uniform load (whether it is easy or difficult is a different issue)..and the amps lose thier grunt when it comes to delivering actual control on speakers on lower end of the spectrum.

This results in muddiness and loose bass.

Even the Plinius SA-REF (at this point in time, I'm assuming I will not be offending anyone by mentioning this product ) is a good example of such behaviour !!

Regards
Siva.

State of the Art
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/hiraga/hiraga.html

abhi.pani schrieb:

State of the Art http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/hiraga/hiraga.html

You think so ?
I have heard this & I did not like it - at all. I have pics too, will look for them & post..

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/