Ribbon tweeters

bhagwan69 schrieb:

I never knew Lansche was 'successful' ...

When I say successful I mean that they have got some sort of recognition in trade show reports, in the news section of on-line magzines etc. That is already a big success in thís totally overgrowded business. Of course I don't know anything about these companies' turnover and profits.
Perhaps you can say something about it when you state that Lansche is not successful in this business.

Regards,
Jochen

KK is Kaiser Kawero
HK is Hong Kong
Kaiser will launch a smaller speaker using latest parts and drivers from Mundorf. It is going to be showcased in the HK show by Mundorf to demonstrate their latest capabilities.
It uses the newest AMT by them.
Deaf.

P.S:Bhagwan 30%, yup. We are very very far from that room and the sound. It is a solid acoustic field.

Deaf, at 30% is just a beginning....

Given the list price of the KK, I do think it NEEDS to (More Than) Double its performance in that system, to get anywhere close to delivering proportionate to its price...

Hope the LARS will do the magic....

Dear Ampnut,
It is an astounding setup in Kaiser's room.
Deaf.

bhagwan69 said:

BTW - The new KK is to be 'launched' tomorrow in HK. I am there. It is in Orange colour & it has a 'new' Mundorf Ribbon. Will take pics & post or mail to you....

Would be GREAT to see the pics of this and other interesting stuff at the HK show. Looking forward to it.

Have a Great Trip !

deaf schrieb:

KK is Kaiser Kawero

They look Ossome

I can only imagine the width of the soundstage here.

abhi.pani schrieb:

I can only imagine the width of the soundstage here.

Abhi probably a bad idea to guess that the soundstage will be fantastic just because of the placement in that particular room. You will need to hear it before commenting.
For all you know, once you hear that setup, you might be disappointed for 1 or more reasons??
In systems trying to trend towards higher-fi & SOTA sonics, none of these parameters are a given.

Take a very recent example that Bhagwan69 & Deaf have been talking about in this very thread - the $100,000 Lars amplifier that is right now in BOM being auditioned by them. All of them had a fantastic listening session overseas (Munich, I ***think***) & were more than delighted by the sonics BUT in BOM is it playing only at 30% of what it was during their overseas audition.
Just because the Lars amp is so expensive does NOT mean it's going to give you 100% in each setup - you will have to work (hard) for that SOTA sound. Same deal for the Kaiser Akustiks Kawero setup - don't even guess what it might be like until you have heard it. All one can say that the speaker & setup looks really nice. FWIW.

Well Guys,
In this case when I was in this room post the Munich show, it completely blew me away. The solidity and scale was fabulous. The staggering dynamics and micro retrieval were among the best I have ever heard.Unbelievable sound stage width and depth.
A couple of days later a Wilson Alexandria 2/ Boulder top of the line and Transparent top the line setup I heard in a very very good room just paled in comparison despite being excellent.
A top of the line Burmester setup in a high end showroom in Munich was ordinary. Please realize that I am not comparing show sounds, I am comparing showrooms and their properly demoed gear,a big difference from show conditions.
This room is a masterpiece. Being the Kaiser distributor I will arrange for anyone who is interested to get a demo of the place, if they are traveling to Munich.
Deaf

bombaywalla schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: I can only imagine the width of the soundstage here. Abhi probably a bad idea to guess that the soundstage will be fantastic just because of the placement in that particular room. You will need to hear it before commenting. For all you know, once you hear that setup, you might be disappointed for 1 or more reasons?? In systems trying to trend towards higher-fi & SOTA sonics, none of these parameters are a given. Take a very recent example that Bhagwan69 & Deaf have been talking about in this very thread - the $100,000 Lars amplifier that is right now in BOM being auditioned by them. All of them had a fantastic listening session overseas (Munich, I ***think***) & were more than delighted by the sonics BUT in BOM is it playing only at 30% of what it was during their overseas audition. Just because the Lars amp is so expensive does NOT mean it's going to give you 100% in each setup - you will have to work (hard) for that SOTA sound. Same deal for the Kaiser Akustiks Kawero setup - don't even guess what it might be like until you have heard it. All one can say that the speaker & setup looks really nice. FWIW.

Hi I am saying that the Kaiser is playing 30%, I did not mention the Lars performance in Mumbai.
Deaf.

bombaywalla schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: I can only imagine the width of the soundstage here. Abhi probably a bad idea to guess that the soundstage will be fantastic just because of the placement in that particular room. You will need to hear it before commenting.

I was only imagining...

Arj schrieb:

deaf schrieb: KK is Kaiser Kawero They look Ossome

And the demo room also looks very well planned. Most interesting the slanting side walls to minimise standing waves and the space behind these walls is a kind of bass trap.
What I observe very often when looking at manufacturers' demo rooms is that they hardly dampen their rooms with foam and other dampening materials. Often there is not even a carpet in front of the speakers! Their motto is dispersion only. Which I also think is more important than damping materials which can only absorb high and mid frequencies. And because of absorbing these frequencies they take the energy away. Here some examples of such heavily treated demo rooms. For Audionet the article is in German only but you can have a look at the very interesting pictures:
http://www.aaudioimp...udioImports&hBuzz=37
http://www.av-magazin.de/Wie_sollte_ein_Raum_klingen.2930.0.html
http://www.sixmoons....urmarten/marten.html

Regards,
Jochen

goolimangala schrieb:

http://www.sixmoons....urmarten/marten.html Regards, Jochen

http://www.sixmoons.com/industryfeatures/roadtourmarten/3.jpg
Thanks Jochen !
Although the other two are better treated. this is perhaps a very practical look at treatment. the rear wall boards (Gypsum ? ) and the side wall foam can be so ealsiy done in any room...even if it is a small one.

Arj,
In the Room indicated by you, the speakers are bookshelves and by themselves will put out little Bass enegy, hence the room does not have to tackle Bass problems, which I think are the most difficult to handle.

There are 2 Vertical columns, next to the speakers, and they could be Bass traps or LF Units ?

The Large ( Ceiling height ) rectangular enclosure in the rear Right corner with a slot, is also very intriguing ...

Hard to tell if the room is optimised for LF

Slightly OT, in the last few days I have been playing around with different materials on the wall (sides, back, front) and inherently as Jochen pointed out damping the wall with any material (Foam, Textile, Rug, Blanket) definitely takes away some air from the music and after a certain point music lacks excitement though it sounds very neat. Blank wall is obviously not the option, I need to try things like Gypsum boards and Egg Crates now (before my family is back in town that is ).

Abhi... I dont know if you need to treat the room for Bass.... I doubt if Gypsum will do anything good for LF...

Also, after applying room treatment, you MUST reposition the speakers, eg you could toe-in the speakers, to get more HF..

Just my thoughts...

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Arj, .. the speakers are bookshelves and by themselves will put out little Bass enegy,... Hard to tell if the room is optimised for LF :?

Thas a valid point AN ie the Bass may need to be further optimised. but did like the simple setup he has put up.

From I could understand LF damping is a double edged weapon unless you really know what you are doing. while it improves one range, it could very much cause problems in other ranges !

Strange this hobby. to do it well you need to know a little bit of Electronics, Accoustics,Power systems,material science...and the most uncommon of them all Common-Sense

Arj said:

Strange this hobby. to do it well you need to know a little bit of Electronics, Accoustics,Power systems,material science...and the most uncommon of them all Common-Sense

I Absolutely agree

Though would like to add 1 more ingredient necessary ... Money !

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Arj said: Strange this hobby. to do it well you need to know a little bit of Electronics, Accoustics,Power systems,material science...and the most uncommon of them all Common-Sense I Absolutely agree Though would like to add 1 more ingredient necessary ... Money ! :.

One more....Permission!

deaf schrieb:

bombaywalla schrieb: abhi.pani schrieb: I can only imagine the width of the soundstage here. Abhi probably a bad idea to guess that the soundstage will be fantastic just because of the placement in that particular room. You will need to hear it before commenting. For all you know, once you hear that setup, you might be disappointed for 1 or more reasons?? In systems trying to trend towards higher-fi & SOTA sonics, none of these parameters are a given. Take a very recent example that Bhagwan69 & Deaf have been talking about in this very thread - the $100,000 Lars amplifier that is right now in BOM being auditioned by them. All of them had a fantastic listening session overseas (Munich, I ***think***) & were more than delighted by the sonics BUT in BOM is it playing only at 30% of what it was during their overseas audition. Just because the Lars amp is so expensive does NOT mean it's going to give you 100% in each setup - you will have to work (hard) for that SOTA sound. Same deal for the Kaiser Akustiks Kawero setup - don't even guess what it might be like until you have heard it. All one can say that the speaker & setup looks really nice. FWIW. Hi I am saying that the Kaiser is playing 30%, I did not mention the Lars performance in Mumbai. Deaf.

sorry, my bad. I thought that you were referring to the Lars performance.

abhi.pani schrieb:

bombaywalla schrieb: abhi.pani schrieb: I can only imagine the width of the soundstage here. Abhi probably a bad idea to guess that the soundstage will be fantastic just because of the placement in that particular room. You will need to hear it before commenting. I was only imagining... 8)

The only cheap and effective material that will work for LF traps is Gypsum. There is a technique for achieving the results.
Deaf

Any reference material I can read on the net ?

AN, had come across this
http://www.radford.edu/shelm/acoustics/bass-traps.html

Deaf are you talking of something on these lines ?

Yes Arj only I do not have the luxury of the aluminum sections, so wood it is.Cheap, simple and all you need is a carpenter with half a brain.
We do not get that quality of rock wool in India though.
Still can use refinement to this idea though.
Deaf

Hey this is ribbon hybrid section
deaf

deaf schrieb:

Hey this is ribbon hybrid section deaf

And every thread turns into a masala thread . That is on all fora like that . No problem, I think .

Regards,
Jochen

deaf... YOU posted on Gypsum Bass traps.....


I do have a couple of important ( to me ! ) comments to Arj & deaf's posts ...

1. Arj & Deaf, Where is the Gypsum in these traps ????
Or am I missing something ?


2. The Results of Before & After fail to impress me. The after is Atleast as un-even a Response , only at a lower SPL, ie more amp power wasted into the room.

As a quick example, a comparision:

UNTREATED ROOM:
Largest Peak @ 59 Hz is 90 dB
First Major Dip @ 76 Hz is approx 80 dB

Difference between the Peak & Trough is 10 dB

TREATED ROOM
Largest Peak @ 60 Hz is 83 dB
First Major Dip @ 74 Hz is approx 73 dB

Difference between the Peak & Trough is the SAME 10 dB !!!

Now that is After installing " 7 Bass Traps + 2 Super Chunk Traps + ... "



The only benefit I see is curing approx 5dB of dip @ 105Hz

Now curing 5 dB at 1 Freq, while loosing 10dB ( TEN Times ) Power at all other Bass freq ...

I for one would not want to replace my 100 Watts per channel amp with a 1000 Watts per channel, when these traps were installed to Partly cure practically 1 Freq @ 105 Hz ... Hardly deep bass. Response above 100 Hz I have ignored, since I am exploring deep bass correction..

Comments welcome (except that this is a Ribbon Tread ) ... maybe I am missing something

goolimangala schrieb:

deaf schrieb: Hey this is ribbon hybrid section deaf And every thread turns into a masala thread . That is on all fora like that . No problem, I think . Regards, Jochen

Not a problem on my thread. It is good see all the oldies back enjoying a nice tête-à-tête

Amp_Nut schrieb:

1. Arj & Deaf, Where is the Gypsum in these traps ???? Or am I missing something ?

Yup..You, me and the link i put all missed Gypsum my bad..

Hi Ampnut,
Abhi said Gypsum, I only said it was the cheapest material.
I too realise the same problems as you did and mentioned I would refine it. Passive acoustic treatments can only smoothen peaks, they cannot fill in dips. This is a very in depth subject best solved by hiring a pro in the field.
Deaf.

Hello all.... as most of the replies have noted, ribbons and domes have their respective pluses and minuses. However, one audio company has managed to make its "tweeter-midrange" drivers sound like one planar device is "Hansen". I have never heard such coherence accross their entire frequency band (midrange to HF). I was shocked. Such speed and attack from "cones" and "domes". It sounded like one "planar" device playing. The Midrange is their own proprietery device whilst the tweeter is a "scan". However, the key is integration. Anyone else have heard the Hansen loudspeakers? Do you concur?

SWITCH-IT-ON schrieb:

Hello all.... as most of the replies have noted, ribbons and domes have their respective pluses and minuses. However, one audio company has managed to make its "tweeter-midrange" drivers sound like one planar device is "Hansen". I have never heard such coherence accross their entire frequency band (midrange to HF). I was shocked. Such speed and attack from "cones" and "domes". It sounded like one "planar" device playing. The Midrange is their own proprietery device whilst the tweeter is a "scan". However, the key is integration. Anyone else have heard the Hansen loudspeakers? Do you concur?

Yes I have heard them 3 times. Quite exceptional as you mentioned. They were playing with Soulution amplifiers. Still not the best ribbon territory resolution for me, but great coherence and spatial imaging.
Deaf.

I too have listened to the Hansen.
With Esoteric & FM Acoustics & I was 'disappointed'
It is a good 6 / 10 sound.
Did not do any 'magic' for me.
Currently my 'hot favorite' is a MBL [yes not a typo]
I loved it in HK.
Best sound for me.
The 2nd was a German Physics & 3rd was Avalon [Time] & Proac [yes Prithvi - the new ones are damn good] !!

All the speakers are 'non conventional' domes - except the AA - Time that has a T & P - 19mm diamond.
So I guess, Ribbons & 'allied' drivers is what this topic thread could read.... [just a suggestion] !!

P.S. The MBL was 'miles' ahead of the competition...
The GP was way behind - but damn good with the Brinkman...to my ears at least..

Bhagwan69 said:

Currently my 'hot favorite' is a MBL [yes not a typo] I loved it in HK. Best sound for me.

GREAT to hear that, Sir !

I recall the condescending looks that I got when I said that the MBL system was the Best at the Taiwan & HK shows... 2 years ago.

The MBL Complete System - 2 yrs ago at the Taiwan Show

At that time, though, the Taiwan set up ( US $ 600K ) was WAY Superior to the One in HK, since it had a triple Stack of MBL Subs, for EACH, Left and Right channels.

Bridged (Stereo Amps configured for Bridge mode and 4X power output ) MBL Amps were used throughout.

I just felt like Saluting to that sound, with a couple of Pics I had taken 2 years ago... however, when I go to Upload file, I am greeted with a Screen in German, and can get beyond that ... Can any one help ?

Each MBL Speaker - Note the Stack Of THREE Subwoofers behind it.

MBL rules for MBJ!

From what i have read, the Rockport Altair II room was sounding good too. What about the 1) Solution with the Nebula? 2) Full TAD room 3) Sonus Faber with Audio Research 4) Dynaudio Consequence UE / Saffire with MF 5) Adam Audio 6) Ktema speaker 7) Baby Vivid Giya? Sorry, hope its not a burden for you to write further.

I remember you mentioning about the "Proac" sound when you visited Sing. last year too. It must be quite stunning!

Have a safe flight home. Good luck.

AN - what can I say;
You are right.
MBL RULES !
It was killer in HK & the best in Singapore too. Mad, simply super..

SWITCH-IT-ON schrieb:

MBL rules for MBJ! From what I have read, the Rockport Altair II room was sounding good too. What about the 1) Solution with the Nebula? 2) Full TAD room 3) Sonus Faber with Audio Research 4) Dynaudio Consequence UE / Saffire with MF 5) Adam Audio 6) Ktema speaker 7) Baby Vivid Giya? Sorry, hope its not a burden for you to write further. I remember you mentioning about the "Proac" sound when you visited Sing. last year too. It must be quite stunning! Have a safe flight home. Good luck.

Hello SIO !
I will write about all. might get long - but bear with me...
Andy Payor [RT] has got old - or has a perpetual cold.
The Altair II was just too bright on all 3 days.
VTL Amps and Crearaudio TT et all, but just not there.

Soulution with Nebula - good.
Not as good as I would be happy with.
TAD room - good on 1 day & average on the following day - went there only 2 times.
SF with AR - average at best. Could not cross 6/10.
Dynaudio Consequence with MF - damn good tone - still had issues with stage height et all. Ideal speaker for classical music. 7/10.
Adam - Tensor - Alpha - good, but not nice.
6/10 at best. Needs a big room to play.
Ktema has good potential - poor electronics - showed up & how.
I would like to listen to this again with 'serious' front end & amplification. 5.5/10 for current performance - can surely scale up.
Vivid is a the 'correct size' now.
Was nice but not special.
Heard it a few times, but just does not pass the 7/10 barrier for me. All are B+ set ups.
Proac with Rex from BAT was good. I liked. 4th best I think.
dCS front end.
The Proac in Singapore was OK in comparison.

The Best thing, the MBL killed all in Singapore too.
Will mail the pics out to you in 30 mins.
Mad.
What is this with MBL. Have I lost my hearing ? Why do I love it - so damn much & that too back to back & has killed all the competation by miles... I al fully fluxed. It played super today in Singapore. Excellent...

The mind is like a window... Often best left open

Bhagwan69

Looking forward to those pics ...

Amp_Nut schrieb:

The mind is like a window... Often best left open Bhagwan69 Looking forward to those pics ...

Dear AN,
Hi !
I agree with you.
Mine is always open - at least that is what I think - in audio. I have heard the MBL several times & have never warmed up to it.
This time around, I do not know what happened....
I am fluxed.
It was simply too good.


p.s. I might suggest that you of all know that I am an 'open minded' and 'blunt' person in audio of all you know...

bhagwan69 said:

I might suggest that you of all know that I am an 'open minded' and 'blunt' person in audio of all you know...

Sir ! My public declaration that you are my Guru, in teaching me that each audiophile's tastes and opinions are valid, and correct. So called ( sometimes self proclaimed like HP ) 'Golden Ears' dont need to be sucked up to for approval / ratificatiion / credibility...

The is for you.

The other comment for the condescending.....

Amp_Nut schrieb:

bhagwan69 said: I might suggest that you of all know that I am an 'open minded' and 'blunt' person in audio of all you know... Sir ! My public declaration that you are my Guru, in teaching me that each audiophile's tastes and opinions are valid, and correct. So called ( sometimes self proclaimed like HP ) 'Golden Ears' dont need to be sucked up to for approval / ratificatiion / credibility... The is for you. The other comment for the condescending.....

Would the MBL qualify as a 'ribbon' ?
I just heard them & they were really nice..

bhagwan69,

You have seen them up close, and probably also spoken to the MBL guys.

How would You classify them ??

Frankly, I dont know WTF they are

Here is a pic of the BIG Brother, up close :

Large MBL Speakers http://dl.dropbox.com/u/721987/MBL%20Speakers.jpg

I has saidL

Sir ! My public declaration that you are my Guru, in teaching me that each audiophile's tastes and opinions are valid, and correct. So called ( sometimes self proclaimed like HP ) 'Golden Ears' dont need to be sucked up to for approval / ratificatiion / credibility...

I received a polite PM from Hercule Pirate asking me why I had singled him out for my vitriolic attack !

Sorry Hircule Pirate, in my post, I was NOT referring to you.

Sorry, it never struck me that the same initials HP, could also refer to your name on the forum !

The HP referred to is HARRY PEARSON, the long standing, and very controversial Editor of US based audiophile magazine "The Absolute Sound"

Amp_Nut,
Good that you clarified. I too was wondering why Hercule Pirate has been mentioned in your post .

abhi.pani schrieb:

Amp_Nut, Good that you clarified. I too was wondering why Hercule Pirate has been mentioned in your post .

Ha Ha !

abhi.pani schrieb:

Amp_Nut, Good that you clarified. I too was wondering why Hercule Pirate has been mentioned in your post .

Abbriviation mix-up.