Ribbon tweeters

abhi.pani schrieb:

State of the Art http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/hiraga/hiraga.html

how do you know, Abhi?? have you heard this particular setup?? Or, have you even heard this particular speaker??
Or, are you simply regurgitating what's written on the Internet??

Abhi, one can optimize one's system to get correct tone, timbre, dynamics & resolution but have all the instruments & the artist playing on top of each other. Is such a situation correct?? Would such a system be considered SOTA sound by you?? I think not!

I can give you an exactly same argument with an opposite picture where you have all the soundstage depth, width , height, layers but instruments sound distorted, electronic, dry, downright screechy, the way it sounds in an auto rickshaw on the Indian roads, would you call that as the pinnacle of music reproduction ?
Lets not make silly assumptions for the sake of arguments.

Let us get on to the same page first.
I am talking about a properly laid out "High End" system, which means all components are well engineered without any major flaws. As mentioned by deaf and few others, SOTA is above the normal state of "high end" setups. Which means one would need to improve upon an already good sounding system.


Now if we are on the same page:

1. I do understand that a state of the art system should do everything extremely well and that includes soundstaging too. However my astonishment was by the fact that, in your books soundstage seemed the most important thing to get "right", even though there are far more fundamental things that could/should have been improved upon.

2. I would totally disagree with the fact that tone and timbre can be optimized to get correct. What optimization are we talking about, Cables and Tweaks ? It is a far more fundamentally complex thing and it has to come from within the equipment, totally a factor of the design.
Yes, cables and tweaks can help keeping the signal honest, but thats about it.

At the end of the day there would be some compromises even in a SOTA system and what compromises are you willing to live with is the question.

LOL! this is one criteria that most systems do not have! It is FAR from given..... You would be very foolish to assume this, if I may be permitted to write this. The acronym (sorry Goolimangala!) PRaT is a very loaded one & it has deep meaning. You have, I'm afraid, glossed over it rather casually. Do some research & figure out what PRaT stands for & what the implications of these words are to a 2-ch system.

There is no reason for me to gloss over an attribute casually unless I really dont care about it, which fyi I do care a lot for. PRAT is independent of other things (tone, dynamics, soundstage), I dont say it is a given for any hifi setup but yes when we are talking about a carefully done high end system, I would take it as given. There are more ways than I know to get PRAT well in a system, a system which lacks PRAT audible enough is hardly high-end in my books anyway, forget SOTA.

According to me, you are off-base here. See my comments a few lines above. Realism includes a soundstage.

No, I am not. See my comments above (regarding being on the same page).

According to you soundstage & tone/timbre/dynamics/res are mutually exclusive. They are NOT! A system unable to generate a correct soundstage will almost certainly unable to generate correct tone/timbre/dynamics/res. OTOH, a system with good timbre, tone, dynamics & resolution will not automatically give you a realistic playback experience. I've seen this too many times to know otherwise.

Please read Siva's comments on this, I do not want to repeat it as I echo the same. The question is, beyond a certain point it becomes a question of excellence and excellence in what field matters more to you is how you define SOTA. To me the sound of real instruments coming out from a speaker heightens the kick I get from music listening (beyond a certain point) the most, even if the placement is not as accurate. If it is the other way round for you, that is fair enough (I only asked the question out of curiosity).
But assuming that everything else will fall into place once the soundstage is perfect is again foolish, if I may be permitted to write this.

bombaywalla schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: State of the Art http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/hiraga/hiraga.html how do you know, Abhi?? have you heard this particular setup?? Or, have you even heard this particular speaker?? Or, are you simply regurgitating what's written on the Internet?? :.

It was just a tongue in the cheek example . This guy uses driver from the 1950s and I remember reading somewhere that this is no less than SOTA !!!
No, No, I have never seen or heard them.

abhi.pani schrieb:

bombaywalla schrieb: abhi.pani schrieb: State of the Art http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/hiraga/hiraga.html how do you know, Abhi?? have you heard this particular setup?? Or, have you even heard this particular speaker?? Or, are you simply regurgitating what's written on the Internet?? :. It was just a tongue in the cheek example . This guy uses driver from the 1950s and I remember reading somewhere that this is no less than SOTA !!! No, No, I have never seen or heard them.

Ach, I see!! There was no way for me to figure out that you were being sarcastic! You had a couple of "hail" emotives & it looked like you were all seduced by those speakers & the setup!
Looks like Bhagwan69 also fell for your statement (little did he realize that you were pulling all our legs!).

Thanx for the clarification.

abhi.pani schrieb:

Abhi, one can optimize one's system to get correct tone, timbre, dynamics & resolution but have all the instruments & the artist playing on top of each other. Is such a situation correct?? Would such a system be considered SOTA sound by you?? I think not! I can give you an exactly same argument with an opposite picture where you have all the soundstage depth, width , height, layers but instruments sound distorted, electronic, dry, downright screechy, the way it sounds in an auto rickshaw on the Indian roads, would you call that as the pinnacle of music reproduction ? Lets not make silly assumptions for the sake of arguments. Let us get on to the same page first. I am talking about a properly laid out "High End" system, which means all components are well engineered without any major flaws. As mentioned by deaf and few others, SOTA is above the normal state of "high end" setups. Which means one would need to improve upon an already good sounding system. Now if we are on the same page: 1. I do understand that a state of the art system should do everything extremely well and that includes soundstaging too. However my astonishment was by the fact that, in your books soundstage seemed the most important thing to get "right", even though there are far more fundamental things that could/should have been improved upon. 2. I would totally disagree with the fact that tone and timbre can be optimized to get correct. What optimization are we talking about, Cables and Tweaks ? It is a far more fundamentally complex thing and it has to come from within the equipment, totally a factor of the design. Yes, cables and tweaks can help keeping the signal honest, but thats about it. At the end of the day there would be some compromises even in a SOTA system and what compromises are you willing to live with is the question. LOL! this is one criteria that most systems do not have! It is FAR from given..... You would be very foolish to assume this, if I may be permitted to write this. The acronym (sorry Goolimangala!) PRaT is a very loaded one & it has deep meaning. You have, I'm afraid, glossed over it rather casually. Do some research & figure out what PRaT stands for & what the implications of these words are to a 2-ch system. There is no reason for me to gloss over an attribute casually unless I really dont care about it, which fyi I do care a lot for. PRAT is independent of other things (tone, dynamics, soundstage), I dont say it is a given for any hifi setup but yes when we are talking about a carefully done high end system, I would take it as given. There are more ways than I know to get PRAT well in a system, a system which lacks PRAT audible enough is hardly high-end in my books anyway, forget SOTA. According to me, you are off-base here. See my comments a few lines above. Realism includes a soundstage. No, I am not. See my comments above (regarding being on the same page). According to you soundstage & tone/timbre/dynamics/res are mutually exclusive. They are NOT! A system unable to generate a correct soundstage will almost certainly unable to generate correct tone/timbre/dynamics/res. OTOH, a system with good timbre, tone, dynamics & resolution will not automatically give you a realistic playback experience. I've seen this too many times to know otherwise. Please read Siva's comments on this, I do not want to repeat it as I echo the same. The question is, beyond a certain point it becomes a question of excellence and excellence in what field matters more to you is how you define SOTA. To me the sound of real instruments coming out from a speaker heightens the kick I get from music listening (beyond a certain point) the most, even if the placement is not as accurate. If it is the other way round for you, that is fair enough (I only asked the question out of curiosity). But assuming that everything else will fall into place once the soundstage is perfect is again foolish, if I may be permitted to write this.

Abhi, you are good armchair warrior, if I may say so.
I think that you should re-read my original post (number 65) where I placed soundstage after PRaT. Do some research, lots of listening & figure out what attributes a system needs to have to achieve good/excellent/superlative PRaT & you shall have your answer....

Let me get back to the ribbon tweeter subject again.

It was with great interest that I read the observation that if I was in the market for a speaker using a conventional woofer married to a ribbon, I need to look at speaker upwards of 15k euros. This was a specific observation by Deaf but it was endorsed although not explicitly by most members by not contradicting it.

I am new to this hobby compared to some of the very senior members out here. So I have a few questions. I am assuming what is required for a loudspeaker to perform well is competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control.

1.What is the price for competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control ?

2.Are folks who charge 15k euros and more the sole keepers of competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control ?

3.How do we arrive at these numbers ? What are the parameters considered?

I hope I am not stepping on anyone shoes here. My sole aim for these questions is knowledge. I am keeping an open mind.

square_wave schrieb:

Let me get back to the ribbon tweeter subject again. It was with great interest that I read the observation that if I was in the market for a speaker using a conventional woofer married to a ribbon, I need to look at speaker upwards of 15k euros. This was a specific observation by Deaf but it was endorsed although not explicitly by most members by not contradicting it. I am new to this hobby compared to some of the very senior members out here. So I have a few questions. I am assuming what is required for a loudspeaker to perform well is competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control. 1.What is the price for competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control ? 2.Are folks who charge 15k euros and more the sole keepers of competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control ? 3.How do we arrive at these numbers ? What are the parameters considered? I hope I am not stepping on anyone shoes here. My sole aim for these questions is knowledge. I am keeping an open mind.

Hi square wave,

it's definetly not a question of the price if a speaker using a ribbon tweeter is good or not. The question is how well the designer of the speaker intgrated the ribbon into the whole speaker system. An example for a successful integration in speaker for less than 15,000 Euro is this one here: http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/myro/myro.html

Regards,
Jochen

goolimangala schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: Let me get back to the ribbon tweeter subject again. It was with great interest that I read the observation that if I was in the market for a speaker using a conventional woofer married to a ribbon, I need to look at speaker upwards of 15k euros. This was a specific observation by Deaf but it was endorsed although not explicitly by most members by not contradicting it. I am new to this hobby compared to some of the very senior members out here. So I have a few questions. I am assuming what is required for a loudspeaker to perform well is competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control. 1.What is the price for competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control ? 2.Are folks who charge 15k euros and more the sole keepers of competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control ? 3.How do we arrive at these numbers ? What are the parameters considered? I hope I am not stepping on anyone shoes here. My sole aim for these questions is knowledge. I am keeping an open mind. Hi square wave, it's definetly not a question of the price if a speaker using a ribbon tweeter is good or not. The question is how well the designer of the speaker intgrated the ribbon into the whole speaker system. An example for a successful integration in speaker for less than 15,000 Euro is this one here: http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/myro/myro.html Regards, Jochen

Hi Jochen,
Thank you for the heads-up on this lovely speaker.
It is definitely less than 15k euro. Now my question.

What are the parameters considered when you said this speaker is good ?

If you have listened and you felt that it sound good, that is good enough. I will not have any more questions.

square_wave schrieb:

goolimangala schrieb: square_wave schrieb: Let me get back to the ribbon tweeter subject again. It was with great interest that I read the observation that if I was in the market for a speaker using a conventional woofer married to a ribbon, I need to look at speaker upwards of 15k euros. This was a specific observation by Deaf but it was endorsed although not explicitly by most members by not contradicting it. I am new to this hobby compared to some of the very senior members out here. So I have a few questions. I am assuming what is required for a loudspeaker to perform well is competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control. 1.What is the price for competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control ? 2.Are folks who charge 15k euros and more the sole keepers of competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control ? 3.How do we arrive at these numbers ? What are the parameters considered? I hope I am not stepping on anyone shoes here. My sole aim for these questions is knowledge. I am keeping an open mind. Hi square wave, it's definetly not a question of the price if a speaker using a ribbon tweeter is good or not. The question is how well the designer of the speaker intgrated the ribbon into the whole speaker system. An example for a successful integration in speaker for less than 15,000 Euro is this one here: http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/myro/myro.html Regards, Jochen Hi Jochen, Thank you for the heads-up on this lovely speaker. It is definitely less than 15k euro. Now my question. What are the parameters considered when you said this speaker is good ? If you have listened and you felt that it sound good, that is good enough. I will not have any more questions. ;)

No, I haven't had the opportunity yet to listen to this speaker. But I know from two reliable sources who's expertise I trust blindly that this is an outstanding speaker...also the bigger models Ocean and Heavens Gate. Further the designer of this speaker, Michael Weidlich, has the reputation in Germany of being one of very few experts who can handle ribbon tweeters. He's been doing it since two decades, first with the original ESS AMTs and now with Mundorf AMTs (ESS had stopped the production some years ago but has taken it up again recently). That's why I unobjectionably recommend this speaker to give it a thought when you are considering to by a speaker with a ribbon tweeter.

Regards,
Jochen

goolimangala schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: goolimangala schrieb: square_wave schrieb: Let me get back to the ribbon tweeter subject again. It was with great interest that I read the observation that if I was in the market for a speaker using a conventional woofer married to a ribbon, I need to look at speaker upwards of 15k euros. This was a specific observation by Deaf but it was endorsed although not explicitly by most members by not contradicting it. I am new to this hobby compared to some of the very senior members out here. So I have a few questions. I am assuming what is required for a loudspeaker to perform well is competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control. 1.What is the price for competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control ? 2.Are folks who charge 15k euros and more the sole keepers of competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control ? 3.How do we arrive at these numbers ? What are the parameters considered? I hope I am not stepping on anyone shoes here. My sole aim for these questions is knowledge. I am keeping an open mind. Hi square wave, it's definetly not a question of the price if a speaker using a ribbon tweeter is good or not. The question is how well the designer of the speaker intgrated the ribbon into the whole speaker system. An example for a successful integration in speaker for less than 15,000 Euro is this one here: http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/myro/myro.html Regards, Jochen Hi Jochen, Thank you for the heads-up on this lovely speaker. It is definitely less than 15k euro. Now my question. What are the parameters considered when you said this speaker is good ? If you have listened and you felt that it sound good, that is good enough. I will not have any more questions. ;) No, I haven't had the opportunity yet to listen to this speaker. But I know from two reliable sources who's expertise I trust blindly that this is an outstanding speaker...also the bigger models Ocean and Heavens Gate. Further the designer of this speaker, Michael Weidlich, has the reputation in Germany of being one of very few experts who can handle ribbon tweeters. He's been doing it since two decades, first with the original ESS AMTs and now with Mundorf AMTs (ESS had stopped the production some years ago but has taken it up again recently). That's why I unobjectionably recommend this speaker to give it a thought when you are considering to by a speaker with a ribbon tweeter. Regards, Jochen

Thanks Jochen.
So we have one parameter defined now.
1.Designer with a proven pedigree.

I am sure there are many other ways to skin the cat

square_wave schrieb:

1.What is the price for competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control ? 2.Are folks who charge 15k euros and more the sole keepers of competent engineering, loudspeaker manufacture expertise and quality control ? 3.How do we arrive at these numbers ? What are the parameters considered? I hope I am not stepping on anyone shoes here. My sole aim for these questions is knowledge. I am keeping an open mind.

1. No price.
The cost is for the time spent in R & D along with DIYing the products that may or may not work.

2. No one is the sole keeper of anything.
All are welcome to try.
Swans & Red Rose etc. do make 'lower priced' Ribbon Driver based loudspeakers...

3. There is no 'definite' figure....
It must just be an 'approximation' [I assume so]
Basically to get Hybrid's to work is very very difficult.
There is a lot of physics & engineering that needs to go into it.
It costs times & hence money...

I wish I could get the top line speaker that goolimangala recommended from Germany [2 steps above Whisky] @ 15 K Euro, I would seriously consider it...

bhagwan69 schrieb:

I wish I could get the top line speaker that goolimangala recommended from Germany [2 steps above Whisky] @ 15 K Euro, I would seriously consider it... :L

In which room would you want to use them, bhagwan? If you have the right room for such a system then you should also consider a pair of Sardec CH-2 using 6 ribbons as line array for the highs, a complete Quad ESL63 for the mids and three 12" woofer for the bass, if you can find a used pair somewhere. This speaker was designed by recording engineers from all over the world with only one goal: an absolutly linear frequency response with an effective sound pressure of 120 dB across the frequency range from 20 to 20000 Hz.
Only a few speakers have been built but a lot of recording engineers who have heard this system still consider it as the best monitor ever made. http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/2239/x7qorunv_jpg.htm

Thanks but no thanks.
I would never install a speaker that 'looked' like that in my listening room, specially since I am used to looking at a Tidal....

But the earlier speaker you recommended was a nice 'idea' & I only got it up, since SW asked about the 15 K barrier.
I truly have yet to come across a 'cheap' [priced] speaker with a ribbon [hybrid design] that sounds 'good'
If I do, I shall post;
If any of you know any - please do enlighten me.
Thanks,

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Thanks but no thanks. I would never install a speaker that 'looked' like that in my listening room, specially since I am used to looking at a Tidal.... But the earlier speaker you recommended was a nice 'idea' & I only got it up, since SW asked about the 15 K barrier. I truly have yet to come across a 'cheap' [priced] speaker with a ribbon [hybrid design] that sounds 'good' If I do, I shall post; If any of you know any - please do enlighten me. Thanks,

The looks of the Sardec are indeed not very attractive.

When we talk about the 15,000 barrier here do you mean the retail price in the country of origin, the manufacturers' price or the distributer's price?

What is cheap for you? One other ribbon expert in Germany, Cay-Uwe Kulzer, seems to have got it right too with his latest development Unikat: http://www.sonus-natura.com/produkte.html Price EUR 3000.- directly from the manufacturer.
Cay-Uwe Kulzer also had his hand in the developments of Seta Audio Speakers: http://www.seta-audio.de/Home.html Besa LS retails for EUR 14,000.-
ASW Magadis http://www.asw-louds....php?sprache=english retails around 15,000 whereas Chelys is around 9,000: http://www.asw-louds....php?sprache=english
Lithophon Miracle you know already. The retail price in 2007 was 14,000 Euro. Today's price I don't know.
Myro Ocean: http://www.myro.de/ocean.html 15,000 directly from the manufacturer.

Regards,
Jochen

Two more Myro speakers with ribbons are under development. Please see here: http://www.myro.de/mw/html/myro_whisky.html

Regards,
Jochen

I have not heard all the lovely speakers being mentioned, but would like to restate my earlier post:

I personally find them very detailed and very fast, like most have said but, I I think my post is going to muddy the water I have been fortunate to hear a few ribbon tweeters, and they have always left the same, consistent sonic signature... The first Ribbon Tweeters that I heard were those on (I think ) a GENESIS Speaker. It was a stand mounted cylindrical speaker cabinet, in glossy ( and LOVELY) Piano black finish. .. goolimangala maybe you can help me identify the speaker model ? That was probably about a decade ago. The treble from the Ribbon tweeters was VERY Open and 'airy'... sweet and seductively (very) different from a dome speaker. I had heard it with Solid State amplification, and I never heard them sound hard or shrill. Infact, on carefully reviewing the very sweet treble, I would say that the Ribbons could not deliver the Bite and sizzle in the treble. Typical examples would be the cymbals struck by a wire brush, the Ribbons would provide immense detail and resolution, but the sizzle that is part of the sound, when a wire brush ( as opposed to a nylon brush or a wooden stick) was missing. Also the Raspiness of a Trumpet, played full throttle, would not have the piercing edge that the live instrument provides. I must re-emphasis that at no time did the ribbons lack resolution or speed, they just did not deliver the bite. I have consistently sound the same sonic signature ( to varying degrees ) with ALL the Ribbon tweeters that i have heard.... some of them, Yes in the 15K Euro category too. To me Ribbon Tweeters present a VERY seductive sound, but that is a (Consistent Ribbon) Coloration. Musical, Yes. Audiophile ... IMHO No I would urge each one to listen and decide for your selves if Ribbon Tweeters are for you.

I stand by what i had said that ALL Ribbon Tweeters that I have heard introduce their characteristic colouration, to some degree or another.

Hence a prospective buyer needs to be sure if that colouration is what floats his boat, before seriously exploring these waters... At ANY price point

Ribbon Tweeters are "LOVELY Fi", but IMO Not "HiFi" as in being able to reproduce HF as it exsits on instruments such as a Cymbal ...

http://www.seta-audio.de/Home.html

Those were excellent links;
Thanks.

Seta I have auditioned & did not like it.

The others I have not heard.
I do look forward to listening to them - some time / some where.

http://www.myro.de/mw/html/myro_time.html

This looks like a computer rendering.
Is it a speaker under production ?

Interesting...

bhagwan69 schrieb:

http://www.myro.de/mw/html/myro_time.html This looks like a computer rendering. Is it a speaker under production ? Interesting...

Design studies for models under development.

Regards,
Jochen

Hi Amp Nut,
I don't think even dome tweeters have the capability of what a cymbal does. In fact the only tweeter that I have heard giving the most realistic rendition of a cymbal is a ribbon tweeter. 100db sensitivity and 1000watt peak power 8"ribbon mounted in a wave guide is pretty smashing in the HF.
Deaf

Volume (SPL) is not the key criteria for me.

(eg There are TONS of Sub woofers that can belt out High SPL... but the Bass is rarely good... )

To me Ribbons simply lack the Necessary Bite (of realism)

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Volume (SPL) is not the key criteria for me. (eg There are TONS of Sub woofers that can belt out High SPL... but the Bass is rarely good... ) To me Ribbons simply lack the Necessary Bite (of realism)

Sure I agree, but a cymbal has immense energy between 30k-40k, which our brain perceives(pl guys no BS bat jokes here, they are too old now). The issue with domes is that, the best domes in reality never extend beyond 25k in a linear manner. Diamonds do, but no power(insensitive) and surface area to do the job.
Secondly the ribbon spoken about has the settling time to truly do cymbals and triangles, about 15 micro seconds. The best domes are about 150 to 200 micro seconds.
Quite frankly I have only heard one driver do cymbals with speed, attack, dynamics and bite with no compression and that is the one I mentioned.
In the end it is right down to personal preferences too.
Deaf.

My ears seem to tell me that the Ribbon Tweeter is Great at the Extreme Upper end of the Spectrum, but cant handle the lower HF too well, as a result, HF instrument sounds lack the 'body' of the low HF... often the 'bite' and the assertiveness. They do the 'shimmer' very well, without adequate Body to the sound... IMHO ofcourse,

... and as you say "it is right down to personal preferences too."

I just felt that there IS an 'Non ideal' characteristic to Ribbon Tweeter sound, and it needs to be pointed out.....

Amp_Nut schrieb:

My ears seem to tell me that the Ribbon Tweeter is Great at the Extreme Upper end of the Spectrum, but cant handle the lower HF too well, as a result, HF instrument sounds lack the 'body' of the low HF... often the 'bite' and the assertiveness. They do the 'shimmer' very well, without adequate Body to the sound... IMHO ofcourse, ... and as you say "it is right down to personal preferences too." I just felt that there IS an 'Non ideal' characteristic to Ribbon Tweeter sound, and it needs to be pointed out.....

Sorry to re-read that your experiences w/ ribbon speakers was overall negative.
It is also very possible that the particular speaker you heard had those characteristics for better or for worse & that it might not be appropriate to cast this black cloud over ribbons in general. It is also possible that the amplification, even tho' solid-state, was not correct for those speakers. Yet another possiblity is that particular room could have destroyed some of the high freq information. You were there so you might have to search your memory bank to see if any of the above are valid.
2ndly, the ribbon technology of 10+ years ago seems to be passe now & today's ribbons are being constructed in a different manner with more modern materials thus resulting in much better overall linearity. The speaker manuf too are probably better off today in terms of lessons learnt from their past experiences hence the ribbon speakers being manuf today might be a whole different animal & who knows, might even impress you if you listen to them putting aside your past negative experience w/ them??
it's possible & not unreasonable to expect.....

Hi Bombaywalla,

I have heard ribbon tweeters over more than a decade.

The most recent ( less than a Couple of months ago ) in a Mumbai Audiophile's Top Notch system, with Valve Pre and power amplification. Yes the speaker is in that Euro 15K Retail category.

My opinion remains unchanged. ( Other Mumbai audiophile who have posted on this thread have All heard the Same system in the Same room ).

I am not saying that all Ribbon Tweeters sound the same or that they are Bad. As I have said, given my listening preferences, they are LOVELY Fi.

To each their own, and I full appreciate that they appreciate different aspects of Hi Fi reproduction. I have absolutely no quarrel with this, and I am NOT saying that I am right and they are wrong.

I simply want to state my perspective. Ribbons make lovely music, but I would not buy a ribbon...

I would love to read posts from others that have Actually heard ribbons... Do you perceive the same deficiencies that I have written about for Ribbon Tweeters ?

On the side, I wonder if you have heard Classic Conrad Johnson Valve Pre and power amplification ? The sound is 'SMOOTH". No its NOT unpleasant, its not bad, its just not the type that does not 'float my boat' particularly for Non Classical music that I listen to.

goolimangala schrieb:

Cay-Uwe Kulzer, seems to have got it right too with his latest development Unikat: http://www.sonus-natura.com/produkte.html Price EUR 3000.- directly from the manufacturer. Cay-Uwe Kulzer also had his hand in the developments of Seta Audio Speakers: http://www.seta-audio.de/Home.html Besa LS retails for EUR 14,000.- ASW Magadis http://www.asw-louds....php?sprache=english retails around 15,000 whereas Chelys is around 9,000: http://www.asw-louds....php?sprache=english Lithophon Miracle you know already. The retail price in 2007 was 14,000 Euro. Today's price I don't know. Myro Ocean: http://www.myro.de/ocean.html 15,000 directly from the manufacturer. Regards, Jochen

Sir, your knowledge on german Equipment is mind boggling.
its amazing the number of niche manufacturers who exist and provide for a niche segment.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hi Bombaywalla, I have heard ribbon tweeters over more than a decade. The most recent ( less than a Couple of months ago ) in a Mumbai Audiophile's Top Notch system, with Valve Pre and power amplification. Yes the speaker is in that Euro 15K Retail category. My opinion remains unchanged. ( Other Mumbai audiophile who have posted on this thread have All heard the Same system in the Same room ). I am not saying that all Ribbon Tweeters sound the same or that they are Bad. As I have said, given my listening preferences, they are LOVELY Fi. To each their own, and I full appreciate that they appreciate different aspects of Hi Fi reproduction. I have absolutely no quarrel with this, and I am NOT saying that I am right and they are wrong. I simply want to state my perspective. Ribbons make lovely music, but I would not buy a ribbon... I would love to read posts from others that have Actually heard ribbons... Do you perceive the same deficiencies that I have written about for Ribbon Tweeters ? On the side, I wonder if you have heard Classic Conrad Johnson Valve Pre and power amplification ? The sound is 'SMOOTH". No its NOT unpleasant, its not bad, its just not the type that does not 'float my boat' particularly for Non Classical music that I listen to.

Amp_Nut,
OK. Thanks for the further clarification.

Re. listening to classic C-J gear - yes, I have & I know exactly what you mean. The overall sound has that honey glow all over it for all the tunes. Sort of matches the champagne colour of their gear. It did not float my boat either. Incidently, the C-J preamp that got my attention (& shocked me in a good way) was the 16LS1 (I was told that the later 16LS2 was not as good). Anyway, C-J gear has come a long way & today it is far more neutral & might even float my boat (if I could afford it! )

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hi Bombaywalla, I have heard ribbon tweeters over more than a decade. The most recent ( less than a Couple of months ago ) in a Mumbai Audiophile's Top Notch system, with Valve Pre and power amplification. Yes the speaker is in that Euro 15K Retail category.

Sir,

There may be a typo here;
Did you mean 15 or 51.
Actually that particular speaker has 3 variants -
55 / 60 / 65 K [Euro]
The one you 'heard' was the 60 K version.

I may request you to listen to it - 19th of this month onwards.
The 'matching' amplifier for it has just arrived.
I mailed the pics to you.
That amp will get to the 'ribbon speaker' on the 19th or there abouts after the owner returns from an overseas audio trip...

p.s. You are still entitled to an opinion on the 'ribbon speakers'
I urge you to go to Pune & listen to the Crystal Speaker
too. I liked it a lot with VTL & dCS gear.

The Pre is 10.5 K US
Power is 6.5 lacs
Speaker is 60 K Euro
Power Cords are @ 2 K US each - 4 in use
Speaker & Interconnects are @ 15 K ++ Euro [approximate]
These are just some indicative retail prices...

p.s. This is for the audio set up that A.N. was referring too...

Amp_Nut, your statements are interesting!!
What do you think about Electrostats ? To start with, Cadence Electrostats, did you like them ?

Would you like to write a few lines comparing the high frequency response of Electrostats vs Ribbons ?

abhi.pani schrieb:

Amp_Nut, your statements are interesting!! What do you think about Electrostats ? To start with, Cadence Electrostats, did you like them ?

Abhi, just to be clear - there is a HUGE difference between "electrostats" & "Cadence electrostats". HUGE!
The Cadence electrostats are hybrid speakers.
When you write "electrostats" I'm thinking Martin Logan CLS II & the new CLX, their Statement E2. I'm also thinking SoundLabs electrostats, which are full-range electrostats. The sonic differences between the 2 are earth & sky hence they cannot be clubbed in the same breadth & neither do they reproduce music the same way.

Arj schrieb:

goolimangala schrieb: Cay-Uwe Kulzer, seems to have got it right too with his latest development Unikat: http://www.sonus-natura.com/produkte.html Price EUR 3000.- directly from the manufacturer. Cay-Uwe Kulzer also had his hand in the developments of Seta Audio Speakers: http://www.seta-audio.de/Home.html Besa LS retails for EUR 14,000.- ASW Magadis http://www.asw-louds....php?sprache=english retails around 15,000 whereas Chelys is around 9,000: http://www.asw-louds....php?sprache=english Lithophon Miracle you know already. The retail price in 2007 was 14,000 Euro. Today's price I don't know. Myro Ocean: http://www.myro.de/ocean.html 15,000 directly from the manufacturer. Regards, Jochen Sir, your knowledge on german Equipment is mind boggling. its amazing the number of niche manufacturers who exist and provide for a niche segment.

Agree with you arjun. The german hifi scene looks very interesting.

Arj schrieb:

Sir, your knowledge on german Equipment is mind boggling. its amazing the number of niche manufacturers who exist and provide for a niche segment.

Hi Arj,
it's simply because I'm more interested in German products because I have better access to them. Also avoiding cost for import and distributor's margins makes German products more interesting for me.
Basically I am more interested in small manufacturers who sometimes make incredibly good gear. The big names of the market usually do not attract my interest so much. I don't know why.

There are still numerous niche manufacturers out there some of whom I would really like to bring to India one day. But it's rather more difficult to market a no name product of high quality than a big name of mediocre quality. Let's see how things develop.

Regards,
Jochen

bombaywalla schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: Amp_Nut, your statements are interesting!! What do you think about Electrostats ? To start with, Cadence Electrostats, did you like them ? Abhi, just to be clear - there is a HUGE difference between "electrostats" & "Cadence electrostats". HUGE! The Cadence electrostats are hybrid speakers. When you write "electrostats" I'm thinking Martin Logan CLS II & the new CLX, their Statement E2. I'm also thinking SoundLabs electrostats, which are full-range electrostats. The sonic differences between the 2 are earth & sky hence they cannot be clubbed in the same breadth & neither do they reproduce music the same way.

Hi Abhi,
I do agree with bombaywalla. Cadence's esl panels are just tweeters. Try to hear a full range electrostatic speaker one day. I think there are a few Quads around in India. Try to audition them in an appropriate room where the speakers have enough space from the rear wall. I quarantee it will be a mind blowing experience.
Same for ribbon tweeters, to come back to the topic of this tread. They are just tweeters. A hybrid ribbon speaker just can not perform like a full range ribbon speaker...something of that class like bombaywalla owns.

Regards,
Jochen

problem with electrostats (non cadence) is that the dust/humidity in india/SE asia kills it.
so even if you get them to sound well for 1 year, be prepared for a gradual deterioration Year on year. IMHO not a good option for those south of the Himalayas !

goolimangala schrieb:

There are still numerous niche manufacturers out there some of whom I would really like to bring to India one day. But it's rather more difficult to market a no name product of high quality than a big name of mediocre quality. Let's see how things develop. Regards, Jochen

Hi Jochen, I was in Paris till today morning and yesterday I got to hear 2 local french speakers - PE Leon and Apertura. both with a Luxman CD/int amp setup and Tara Labs RSC cabling. (None Ribbon thus making this slightly OT )

very very musical although a bit light on the bass.. an this is in a slightly better than average Electronics store (Fnac.fr)
this just got me thinking on Niche manufacturers in europe in particular who perhaps consider their market limited and service a local but knowledgeable clientele.
but the problem in selling them in India would be enormous..so many folks (including myself) are not confident enough to make a purchase based on a few hearings and going just by the ear. we need the backing of reviews/brand name and global opinions to derisk our purchases.

Arj schrieb:

problem with electrostats (non cadence) is that the dust/humidity in india/SE asia kills it. so even if you get them to sound well for 1 year, be prepared for a gradual deterioration Year on year. IMHO not a good option for those south of the Himalayas !

True, electrostats in tropical environment is a bit "delicate" affair. I have absolutely no idea how magnetostats and ribbons would behave in such a climate.

Regards,
Jochen

Arj schrieb:

goolimangala schrieb: There are still numerous niche manufacturers out there some of whom I would really like to bring to India one day. But it's rather more difficult to market a no name product of high quality than a big name of mediocre quality. Let's see how things develop. Regards, Jochen but the problem in selling them in India would be enormous..so many folks (including myself) are not confident enough to make a purchase based on a few hearings and going just by the ear. we need the backing of reviews/brand name and global opinions to derisk our purchases.

Hi Arj,

yes that is a big problem. That's why I have chosen also two brands (Blumenhofer & Einstein) which have got already some kind of recognition. Still more and especially more affordable brands I want to bring to India one day.

Regards,
Jochen

goolimangala schrieb:

bombaywalla schrieb: abhi.pani schrieb: Amp_Nut, your statements are interesting!! What do you think about Electrostats ? To start with, Cadence Electrostats, did you like them ? Abhi, just to be clear - there is a HUGE difference between "electrostats" & "Cadence electrostats". HUGE! The Cadence electrostats are hybrid speakers. When you write "electrostats" I'm thinking Martin Logan CLS II & the new CLX, their Statement E2. I'm also thinking SoundLabs electrostats, which are full-range electrostats. The sonic differences between the 2 are earth & sky hence they cannot be clubbed in the same breadth & neither do they reproduce music the same way. Hi Abhi, I do agree with bombaywalla. Cadence's esl panels are just tweeters. Try to hear a full range electrostatic speaker one day. I think there are a few Quads around in India. Try to audition them in an appropriate room where the speakers have enough space from the rear wall. I quarantee it will be a mind blowing experience. Same for ribbon tweeters, to come back to the topic of this tread. They are just tweeters. A hybrid ribbon speaker just can not perform like a full range ribbon speaker...something of that class like bombaywalla owns. Regards, Jochen

My question was exactly that, what is AN's opinion on Electrostats as tweeters ? I can see different electrostats having different sounds and obviously full range electrostats are totally different (I have heard only the Quad but in a suboptimal setup) but in general the HF response of all Electrostats should have some similarities just like there is between all ribbon tweeters. AN's view on this will be interesting I suppose.

Hi Abhi,

Thanks for clarifying whre you came from.

I have heard a Pair of Cadence Speakers (belonged to Deaf) in my home, a few years ago.

I have also heard many other Cadence Speakers, with and without the Electrostat panels, including their Top Of the Line which I heard at the Taiwan HiFi show 2 years ago.

I liked the Cadence Electrostat tweeter panels a Lot.

The Cadence Electrostat Tweeter panels are Large, and go down really Low in freq ( as tweeters can go ! ) and I think the Cross over is around 1.5KHz to 2KHz.

Goolimangala & Deaf please correct me with the correct freq.

Hence the treble from these Cadence Electrostat tweeters has All the body that the Ribbons miss. On the other hand, Ribbons provide a lovely Extreme HF extension that the Cadence Electrostat Tweeters cant match..

Both are quite different animals... IMHO ofcourse !

Amp_Nut schrieb:

The Cadence Electrostat Tweeter panels are Large, and go down really Low in freq ( as tweeters can go ! ) and I think the Cross over is around 1.5KHz to 2KHz. Goolimangala & Deaf please correct me with the correct freq. Hence the treble from these Cadence Electrostat tweeters has All the body that the Ribbons miss. On the other hand, Ribbons provide a lovely Extreme HF extension that the Cadence Electrostat Tweeters cant match.. Both are quite different animals... IMHO ofcourse ! :Y

Hi Amp Nut,

The crossover frequencies for Cadence's ESL hybrid speakers are:

Anina - 1.35 kHz
Amaya - 950 Hz
Avita - 1.8 kHz
Arista - 1.3 kHz
Arca - 1090 Hz

Regards,
Jochen

That is a WEALTH of Very Precise Info !

THANKS

Dear Ampnut,
The cadence xover is about 1k. The top speaker in Mumbai plays the ribbon over 5.5k only, hence the amazing air. Let me mention that the same speaker I heard in Germany with GTE electronics was a completely different animal. Resolution beyond compare and full bandwidth dynamics of a large mastering monitor. The setup in Mumbai is playing about 30% only.
Most ribbon hybrids mess up trying to xover between 2k to 4.5k, the most sensitive area of the inner ear(centered around 3,5k). The best areas are below 1.8k or above 5k.
Lets hope that the Lars takes the performance closer to ideal.
Regards
Deaf.

Would LOVE to hear the LARS in that setup.

deaf schrieb:

Dear Ampnut, The cadence xover is about 1k. The top speaker in Mumbai plays the ribbon over 5.5k only, hence the amazing air. Let me mention that the same speaker I heard in Germany with GTE electronics was a completely different animal. Resolution beyond compare and full bandwidth dynamics of a large mastering monitor. The setup in Mumbai is playing about 30% only. Most ribbon hybrids mess up trying to xover between 2k to 4.5k, the most sensitive area of the inner ear(centered around 3,5k). The best areas are below 1.8k or above 5k. Lets hope that the Lars takes the performance closer to ideal. Regards Deaf.

Hi Deaf,

may I ask you which speakers you're talking about: the top speaker in Mumbai and the speaker your heard in Germany with GTE electronics?

Regards,
Jochen

Dear Jochen
It is the Kaiser Acoustics Kawero.
Deaf

deaf schrieb:

Dear Jochen It is the Kaiser Acoustics Kawero. Deaf

Hi Deaf,

This is a real nice looking speaker. I have heard a lot about it and I am looking forward to audition it one day. Kaiser seems to be one more German company who seeks recognition in other countries first before going to their native place. Many companies did that before such as Tidal, Lansche, Bonnec, German Physics, Valvet and others. And it seems they all were quite successful to go this way round.
Wish you great success as well.

Regards,
Jochen

...and it's quite refreshing to see that a manufacturer from Germany who uses a ribbon tweeter for once does not use a Mundorf ribbon

I never knew Lansche was 'successful'

BTW - The new KK is to be 'launched' tomorrow in HK.
I am there.
It is in Orange colour & it has a 'new' Mundorf Ribbon.
Will take pics & post or mail to you....

Deaf - 30 % ??
That seems to be so damn far from where we are....