Advice Needed: Scalable/Futureproof Speakers

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particleman
Stammgast
#1 erstellt: 12. Apr 2006, 08:41
(Note: this might sound like a Surround query but stuck it here in the Stereo section because in part that is what I'm looking for right away, not the whole 5.1 set)
Short Version

I foolishly bought the Yamaha YHT-160 HTIB consisting of the Yamaha HTR-5830 (based on RX-V357) 5.1-channel AVR and NS-P110 speaker set. Awful stereo performance! Cannot afford to replace the AVR for a year so would like to brave it out with this lemon. Now looking for speakers to replace the Fronts, for a start. My budget is around Rs. 30,000 (give or take 5k) and I would like to buy high-quality bookshelf speakers, the reasoning here being that when I can afford audiophile-quality floorstanders I can shift these to the rear/surrounds. The speaker terminal is marked 6-ohm minimum, and though it is rated at 100 watts @ 6ohms, I would expect the actual output is closer to around 35 wpc. Would like your suggestions for speakers that are easy to drive with this AVR but will also serve well with a more powerful amp/receiver in future. Room size is small, choice of music tends towards jazz, acoustic, alternative rock all played at a low to medium volume (i.e. no pounding bass). Would like to timbre-match the center and surrounds in future.

(Very) Long Version

First of all, thanks for still reading. To add to the above, well I bought this set without proper research and was unaware that top brands like NAD, Rotel, Jamo etc are available here. Yes, I'm an idiot. Would like to salvage the situation by buying speakers that will last 5 years or more and work with better equipment. A consideration here is the upcoming DolbyHD and the existing DVD-Audio standards which demand (I think!) speakers capable of higher upper frequency range. With this in mind I do not regret buying a cheap AVR as it may be obsolete in 2-3 years and I listen to movies as often as I do music on this setup.

I do not have a keen sense of hearing as various auditions with a friend (who can easily pick out various subtleties) have demonstrated, and I tend to like every speaker I hear. Words like "soundstage", "imaging", etc. are just that to me -- words... that I do not understand! Therefore I would add other practical considerations to my search: is it a brand well supported in India esp for spares and repairs? Is it easy to maintain? Will it work with future upgrades? I understand that speakers that do not colour the recording are the best choice but I also do not like "sterile" sound and want a hint of brightness or sparkle.

Yes, the first step is to audition, audition, audition; and I have done just that. Only served to drive me crazy. My findings (in chrono order, favourites in bold):
1] JBL Northridge series - first speakers I listened to, nice sound. Was worried that the guy at the shop told me they would "cause a problem with my 6-ohm receiver". Did not strike me as a premium range however.
2] Dali and Cadence: great speakers but out of my budget. Not sure if they offer center/surrounds.
3] KEF and Polk: sounded rather "clinical" as someone here put it. I am aware of KEF's reputation and would take a chance with them if advised to do so. Did not like the idea of Uni-Q - the mids and highs seemed to merge.
4] Jamo: now these I really liked!! Sadly, browsing the web turns up few results and even among those I hear that "better alternatives are available" or, according to my friend, they colour the sound quite a bit. The E825's 4-ohm rating scares me! But I liked its sound. I also liked the E750 floorstander (future reference) and one of my initial plans was to buy the E825 or E700 (did not get to hear it) now and upgrade to a E855 or E750 (respectively) + E7Cen, E8Cen.2 in future. Why is there so little Jamo love in this world? Sigh.
5] B&W - the BMWs of the speaker world. Call it a psychological effect - loved these, especially how they reveal details in the recording! Was aware that the listening room is well padded and acoustically treated. Have heard they demand a lot of juice but have at least one report that a low-end receiver like mine can drive the 602 S3 (though I am considering the 601 S3). They have good frequency range fulfilling the criteria of DVD-Audio formats, and the build quality is of course legendary.
6] PSB Image series: Sounded good but not great to me but worried about support. Heard opinions that the mids are muddy. Did not care for the finish. A runner-up choice? Also heard ELACs (ribbon tweeter!) here but it seemed to strain under the weight of Tom Jones' voice - and yes, too expensive for me.
7] Dynaudio: Great speakers but a) too costly? (don't know the price), b) 4-ohm load is scary. If these two are resolved then yes this would be a serious contender.
8] Totem, Castle: grouped these as I heard them at the same place. Again, too expensive but just mentioned them for the record.

Well, I think that covers all the speakers I've auditioned. Did not dare to lug my receiver around because I'm a scaredy-cat and also I'm too lazy to re-connect everything when I get it back home.

Now I've heard that an underpowered receiver can blow the speaker's tweeters. Would this happen even if I play at a low volume? Also another consideration of course is the impedance. I am staying away from 4-ohm speakers even though the store-owners emphasise that they are "no problem whatsoever". I even annoyed the heck out of one guy by harping on this until he fumed "I don't know who has put this fear in your mind!" -- but dude, I don't want a fried receiver on my hands, or a blown speaker. I am guessing that a 8-ohm speaker would be "easier to drive" but would be softer? Please tell me: under what conditions can damage occur to a speaker or receiver?

Bottomline
So to sum it up, I'm looking for bookshelf speakers within Rs. 25-34,000 that an audiophile would not balk at, which would work well with future/better equipment, which will serve well with future formats, but above all still works with my present, low-grade receiver. Tall order? You bet!

I plan to buy the speakers in a month or so, so I welcome all your feedback and suggestions -- do take your time, I'm in no rush. I do not of course expect answers to every query I've raised but whatever you can tell me will be carefully considered and greatly appreciated. Thank you for reading all this.
Shahrukh
Inventar
#2 erstellt: 12. Apr 2006, 09:18
This one's out of the list but seeing your budget and taste of music, I'd strongly recommend Quad 11Ls. 6 ohm speakers with a senstivity of around 87db (if I'm not mistaken). They retail for around 29K.

I don't know if it'll be overkill for the Yammy but the Quad's warm tonality would tame the Yammy's bright sound.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#3 erstellt: 12. Apr 2006, 09:26
Check out Wharfdale Evo series and Monitor Audio bookshelves.
Among your list, it would be Dali (Ikon series) or B&W for me in that order.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#4 erstellt: 12. Apr 2006, 09:36

Shahrukh schrieb:

I don't know if it'll be overkill for the Yammy but the Quad's warm tonality would tame the Yammy's bright sound.


First of all IMO Yammys, especially the entry level ones are very DULL sounding in STEREO mode. The highs are dull and so is the hardly present bass. The mids are also ordinary.
Undoubtedly Quad is a very good choice but forget about the taming factor.
nimz
Ist häufiger hier
#5 erstellt: 12. Apr 2006, 09:41
Nice long read

I was in ur position not too long ago...

I'd recomment the Diamonds 9.1 as ur too particular abt book shelves (i guess books are the audiophile way to go!!) I'd also recommend u look at the Monitor Bronze book shelves.. heard they are great but have never heard them !!

If ur in Mumbai also look at Lithos - they are a sub sat combo.. but sposed to have good soundstaging (again I have not listened to these)

Coming to ur understaning of soundstaging.. well they were mere words to me too until I met the WHarfedale diamonds!!!
Check the 9.1 with ur fav jazz / classic rock CD.. close ur eyes and cross over to the otherside where the soundstage will be revealed to u!!

Bottom line - follow ur ears...
Arj
Inventar
#6 erstellt: 12. Apr 2006, 11:14

particleman schrieb:

7] Dynaudio: Great speakers but a) too costly? (don't know the price), b) 4-ohm load is scary. If these two are resolved then yes this would be a serious contender.
8] Totem, Castle: grouped these as I heard them at the same place. Again, too expensive but just mentioned them for the record.


perhaps the best future proof speaker. 4 Ohms is not as scary as people make it out to be and a NAD 320BEE can easily drive it .

If you have a budget constraint then Quad is definitely a contender..and the B&W speakers are also not as bad (for their price) as people make them out to be in personal reviews.

Please do not go by 4 Ohm ratings. it Does NOT mean a difficult load. I have a 4 Ohm 89 db speaker and run it with a 10 W amp to ear balsting levels..
particleman
Stammgast
#7 erstellt: 12. Apr 2006, 11:35
Wow, what a response! I'm thrilled to have so many helpful answers in such a short span of time (I was secretly hoping for some validation of my Jamo love but it looks like the Brits are winning this war ). Thank you all!

Shahrukh: I hadn't heard much about Quads but the specs look very good. Will try to visit the Designer Audio showroom this weekend or next - sounds promising. Overkill is what I want anyway.

abhi.pani: I will check out the Wharfdale at the Designer Audio showroom, its a good thing they're under the same roof as Quad. I'm thrilled to hear you mention B&W, my top pick from my list. Do you think my receiver could drive the 601S3? Yes, I think "dull" perfectly describes the sound from my Yamaha.

nimz: Another vote for Wharfdale! And Monitor Audio! So they definitely warrant careful consideration. I'm not too sure about Lithos though but thanks for the tip.

Arj: Thanks! Dynaudio is another favourite and I am certainly relieved to hear about the 4-ohm load not being a problem (besides I will have the speakers set to "small" with my current AVR). Yes they seemed rather expensive so, as you've said, Quad and B&W are my fallback options.

I will be sure to update this thread when I've auditioned your recommended speakers. So after receiving your feedback, the contestants are now: Wharfdale (Evo and 9.x Diamonds), Quad 11L, Dynaudio (A42 I think), and B&W (601 S3).
Shahrukh
Inventar
#8 erstellt: 12. Apr 2006, 12:15

particleman schrieb:
I'm not too sure about Lithos though but thanks for the tip.


IMO, You should definitely give Lithos a listen. Great bang for your buck. And quite decent with Yammy amps, if I may say so.

BTW which Totem models did you listen to??
particleman
Stammgast
#9 erstellt: 12. Apr 2006, 12:31

Shahrukh schrieb:
IMO, You should definitely give Lithos a listen. Great bang for your buck. And quite decent with Yammy amps, if I may say so.


Perhaps I was hasty in my judgement - I will audition them as well. That they don't seem to have matching center and surround speakers (unless I'm wrong) is a bit of a deal-breaker for me as I am keen on timbre-matching all speakers (keeping multi-channel audio, e.g. DVD-A/SACD) in mind.


Shahrukh schrieb:
BTW which Totem models did you listen to??


It was the Totem Sttaf, at this tiny showroom in Juhu, and I am told the Forest is coming soon. However at Rs. 79,000 it is beyond my budget and I believe the Forest is priced at about twice that. I have not found any Totem bookshelf speakers so far - if they are reasonably priced I would consider them. There was unanimous agreement that the Sttaf was the most accurate of all speakers auditioned but I personally found them a bit too sharp (not "harsh", mind you) for my taste.
ckn
Ist häufiger hier
#10 erstellt: 12. Apr 2006, 18:06
Hey,

Is that you taking out your frustration on some poor audio demo guy?

Why in the world are you carrying such violent logo? Something subliminal here? You must be liking Ozzy and his ilk type music?

ckn
particleman
Stammgast
#11 erstellt: 12. Apr 2006, 20:39

ckn schrieb:
Hey,

Is that you taking out your frustration on some poor audio demo guy?

Why in the world are you carrying such violent logo? Something subliminal here? You must be liking Ozzy and his ilk type music?

ckn


Well, I didn't think it would offend anyone - just picked out a GIF in a hurry. I'll think about changing it. Its a scene from "Office Space", and if you've seen the movie this is a pretty funny scene -- anyway he's beating up a fax machine, not a person. Nothing subliminal here, just a lack of imagination on my part... or maybe you could be right -- all these speaker choices can drive a man mad at times. As for Mr. Osbourne, sadly I am more Jazz/Swing/Alt Rock than Heavy Metal.

Getting back to the thread...why am I up at 2:00 in the morning? Its because these stories I'm reading on other web sites about underpowered amps blowing tweeters are getting to be rather scary.

I wanted to add that I've been asked to take a look at other Indian speakers after speaking to a friend about Lithos. The names mentioned were "Pandam", "Telome" (sp?) and a few other custom-built ones. Well, I'm not one to turn down the chance to listen to music coming out of a fine speaker so... auditions, here I come!
Shahrukh
Inventar
#12 erstellt: 13. Apr 2006, 05:28
Pandam's decent with Pulz amps. However I'm not sure if Prashant Damle still makes speakers for home use. I remember he had a bookshelf he called Coda. You could always check out his Mahim setup ofcourse.

Telome...um...decent for home cinema. Not so sure about good clean stereo performance. They're more into Bose-like sub sat systems. But give them a listen anyway.
nimz
Ist häufiger hier
#13 erstellt: 13. Apr 2006, 06:00

particleman schrieb:

Shahrukh schrieb:
IMO, You should definitely give Lithos a listen. Great bang for your buck. And quite decent with Yammy amps, if I may say so.


Perhaps I was hasty in my judgement - I will audition them as well. That they don't seem to have matching center and surround speakers (unless I'm wrong) is a bit of a deal-breaker for me as I am keen on timbre-matching all speakers (keeping multi-channel audio, e.g. DVD-A/SACD) in mind.



Hey particleman,

The Lithos has matchin speakers... u just need to put one Noa1 spkr as the center... only drawback is they are not magnetically shielded..

Lucky ur in mumbai u could audition the Lithos... I was seriously considering the lithos but since i couldnt get to listen to them i didnt buy them... check out lithosindia.com

bottom line again : follow ur ears..

keep rocking

Nimalan
Arj
Inventar
#14 erstellt: 13. Apr 2006, 06:34

particleman schrieb:
Why is there so little Jamo love in this world? Sigh.


Hey particleman, your style of writing Rocks

Jamos used to be very highly regarded Audiophile speakers in europe but over the years they shifted the focus to HT as well and also lost out to othe Cos in the Marketing game. at one point they were one of the largest selling European speakers.

They have recently been taken over by Klipsch but the plan appears to be to retain their identitiy and they seem to be now coming up with a high end range of Infinite Baffle speakers.

They are not so "Brand" famous but they are good and if they rocked your boat you need not worry about how other folks feel.. anyway personal reviews/owner reviews are not gospel truth .

PLease do nbot worry about the 4 ohms rating, Jamo speakers are not that difficult to drive and your Yammy should be able o do that with no problem. (Just take it to the dealers and try the out with the speakers)


totems are slightly overpriced, but the Arro is a very good speaker and can be considered a bookshelf in character. sttaf is a compromise product and hawk aparently has sonic issues (for its price)


[Beitrag von Arj am 13. Apr 2006, 06:37 bearbeitet]
ckn
Ist häufiger hier
#15 erstellt: 14. Apr 2006, 03:51
Guys,

I just auditioned the Dynaudio Focus series yesterday. This is the new series.Quite impressed with the speakers. Typical Dyn controlled sound, leaning towards the neutral side. But Nice! Pricewise, bit on the higher side tho (1.46 is the quoted price). Maybe you ought to have a look. Soundsmith in Mumbai.

ckn
Arj
Inventar
#16 erstellt: 14. Apr 2006, 04:26
heard the new ones are a still easier load.. this months stereophile has a review on it, but have not really found the time to read it yet..
soulforged
Stammgast
#17 erstellt: 14. Apr 2006, 08:04
Also, check out PSB if you can. Especially the Image series bookshelf (B15 & B25)...they are really good for ur choice of music...
particleman
Stammgast
#18 erstellt: 14. Apr 2006, 08:06
I'd like to thank everyone for their continued contribution to this thread. This is truly excellent advice, that I have not been able to get anywhere else.


Shahrukh schrieb:
Pandam's decent with Pulz amps...You could always check out his Mahim setup ofcourse.

I hope to do this in a few days. Perhaps I'll get lucky and find something suitable.


Shahrukh schrieb:
Telome...um...decent for home cinema. Not so sure about good clean stereo performance.

My feelings exactly! I've only seen these at cafes and such. Sounded tinny and poor but assumed they may have a better range. As you said, its worth lending an ear to.


nimz schrieb:
The Lithos has matchin speakers... u just need to put one Noa1 spkr as the center... only drawback is they are not magnetically shielded..

Thanks, nimz, good to know. Yes, the lack of shielding could be a factor for the center speaker. I wish I had an idea of their pricing though - I hope it isn't sky-high like Cadence (which is warranted, of course).


Arj schrieb:
Hey particleman, your style of writing Rocks :)

Thank you, I'm flattered to hear that. I also appreciate the vast insight you bring to this thread.


Arj schrieb:
They are not so "Brand" famous but they are good and if they rocked your boat you need not worry about how other folks feel.. anyway personal reviews/owner reviews are not gospel truth .

I tend to agree. I must add that with the Jamos I liked the whole package -- who can disagree that the D570/590's are one of the most visually compelling designs around? These speakers just whisper "take me home" in your ear. However I do trust the ears of the veterans of this forum more than I would my own. In my experience (read "expenses"), I have made poor decisions based on the wrong criteria. The feedback I have received here will serve to avoid that this time around.


Arj schrieb:
PLease do nbot worry about the 4 ohms rating, Jamo speakers are not that difficult to drive and your Yammy should be able o do that with no problem. (Just take it to the dealers and try the out with the speakers)

Alright!!! This really made my day! I think I will do just that after I have auditioned all the other suggested speakers. I lean towards the Jamos even now only because they have a very affordable range, even among the floorstanding speakers. On the flipside, the manner in which the B&W 601/2s revealed great detail in the recordings is very attractive. I expect the Evo, Quad, and Lithos speakers recommended above will also do the same. I guess that is another major factor for me: monitor-like speakers that reveal vast amounts of detail without being too sterile.


Arj schrieb:
totems are slightly overpriced, but the Arro is a very good speaker and can be considered a bookshelf in character. sttaf is a compromise product and hawk aparently has sonic issues (for its price)

I see. The Totems are off my list anyway due to their (high) price but this is good to know.


ckn schrieb:
I just auditioned the Dynaudio Focus series yesterday. This is the new series.Quite impressed with the speakers. Typical Dyn controlled sound, leaning towards the neutral side. But Nice! Pricewise, bit on the higher side tho (1.46 is the quoted price). Maybe you ought to have a look. Soundsmith in Mumbai.

Thanks for the lead, ckn! I'll be happy to have a chance to hear these fine speakers even though they're way out of my league.
particleman
Stammgast
#19 erstellt: 14. Apr 2006, 08:21

soulforged schrieb:
Also, check out PSB if you can. Especially the Image series bookshelf (B15 & B25)...they are really good for ur choice of music...

Thanks, soulforged. I did audition these and the entire Image range at LaKozy. The owner claimed they'd beat out the B&Ws for price and quality. Perhaps it was "auditioning fatigue" but they failed to charm me in any way. I suppose this can also be viewed as a good thing: they must be speakers that faithfully reproduce sound without coloring it or trying to wow you in any way. The "Stereophile" review by Rob Reina is in complete agreement with your view - these seem to be ideal for jazz. And like the Jamos, the range is very affordable so I will keep an open mind about these speakers as well.
Arj
Inventar
#20 erstellt: 14. Apr 2006, 08:48

particleman schrieb:
Perhaps it was "auditioning fatigue" but they failed to charm me in any way. I suppose this can also be viewed as a good thing: they must be speakers that faithfully reproduce sound without coloring it or trying to wow you in any way.


you are showing an audio maturity far beyond your "newbie status" my friend.

Auditioning a speaker begins only after listening to it for the first 15 to 20 min.. it is only after that that you get to know whether it is a speaker that Grabs you and then troubles you or that you can have a long relaxing listening session with.

once you have shorlisted your final 3 speaker, please insis on re audiotioning, Ideally with your regular Amp and CDP and carry one CDR with all songs you regularly listen to and ensure you have atleast on track of
1. Female Vocals (Rebecca pidgeon, if you like her is good)
2. male vocals (My favourite is Chris Rhea or Harry Belafonte)
3. deep drums
4. High freq like Triangles, violin, bells
5. deep mid bass like bass guitars, double bass etc
6. ...

if you enjoy each of the above for long periods, you have found your audiomate
square_wave
Inventar
#21 erstellt: 14. Apr 2006, 10:11
Hi Particleman,
At 30k you can some pretty good bookshelf speakers. Try and push for the best you can get for this budget. This means you have to go past the entry level from most brands and get into the mid segment at least to get a taste of hi-end sound. This won’t make it future proof but you won’t have to upgrade for a long time. Avoid entry level stuff like wharfedale diamond 9.1 etc…
Some models that come into mind if you want international popular brands:
Quad 11 L
Dynaudio audience 42
B&W DM602 S3 provided you partner them with a warm amp. It can get a bit hot with some amps.
EPOS M12.2

Jamo is good when you reach their D Series. Rest are all mass market.
There are others like Spendor, totem, PMC etc.. but I do not know about their availability in India. Make sure you factor in the price of decent stands without which your b/k speaker won’t even perform to even 50 percent of their potential. They can set you back at least 3k.
particleman
Stammgast
#22 erstellt: 14. Apr 2006, 12:30

square_wave schrieb:
Some models that come into mind if you want international popular brands:
Quad 11 L
Dynaudio audience 42
B&W DM602 S3 provided you partner them with a warm amp. It can get a bit hot with some amps.
EPOS M12.2

Thanks for the very comprehensive post, square_wave. I've eliminated Dynaudio as it seems too expensive for me (my goal is ultimately a 5.1 set for 120,000 or so). The Quad 11L looks very good on paper and I look forward to auditioning it. I've tried out both the B&W 601 and 602 -- no doubt, the 602 has a fuller sound with a more extended bass but its too middle-of-the-road given what I'm looking for. As I mentioned in my first post, these speakers will serve as fronts for now but will later become surrounds -- and the 602 seems like overkill for that duty. You mention the 602 will run hot, what about the 601? The tests I've read indicate the 600 family dips down to 3ohm for deep bass. I've not been able to find out where EPOS is sold in Mumbai or its approximate cost. Unfortunately I don't have an amp but a low-end receiver which I hope will cut it for now.


square_wave schrieb:
Jamo is good when you reach their D Series. Rest are all mass market.

Sad but true it seems. The D570/590 are impressive but have no front/surround speakers to (timbre-)match. I have a feeling my choice will ultimately be between the Kevlar coned Quad and B&W unless the PSB B25 impresses second time around.


square_wave schrieb:
Make sure you factor in the price of decent stands without which your b/k speaker won’t even perform to even 50 percent of their potential. They can set you back at least 3k.

Thanks, I'll keep this in mind. AudioVision quoted about 6.5k for the 601/2 stand which struck me as rather high. If nothing else, I'll have them made by a carpenter for a quarter of that.
particleman
Stammgast
#23 erstellt: 14. Apr 2006, 12:39

Arj schrieb:
you are showing an audio maturity far beyond your "newbie status" my friend.

Auditioning a speaker begins only after listening to it for the first 15 to 20 min.. it is only after that that you get to know whether it is a speaker that Grabs you and then troubles you or that you can have a long relaxing listening session with.


Very solid advice that is much appreciated! This is what got me thinking about the PSB B25s all over again, and the store owner's challenge that it would beat the B&W 602s. I must admit I'm a sucker for "features" - just listening to the B&W pitch with the "Nautilus tweeter" and the "Flowport" gets me drooling. But I am disgusted by the inflated prices of their speakers (68,000 for the 603S3 over here versus the $1,000 MSRP abroad?!). Lets hope the Quads are sensibly priced. Its ultimately price and "ease of drive" that will guide my final decision I guess since all 3 are equally competent.


Arj schrieb:
once you have shorlisted your final 3 speaker, please insis on re audiotioning, Ideally with your regular Amp and CDP and carry one CDR with all songs you regularly listen to and ensure you have atleast on track of
1. Female Vocals (Rebecca pidgeon, if you like her is good)
2. male vocals (My favourite is Chris Rhea or Harry Belafonte)
3. deep drums
4. High freq like Triangles, violin, bells
5. deep mid bass like bass guitars, double bass etc
6. ...

This is the part that puts a lump in my throat - the acid test - the true nature of my A/V receiver laid bare. Will it come up short? (Gulp!) Your list is very handy; I'll make a CDR soon and post the playlist here.
square_wave
Inventar
#24 erstellt: 15. Apr 2006, 08:23
The B&W DM series have always been a bit hot (sharp) for my ears. This is a problem which you will encounter with entry level models from almost all brands. The wharfedales have worked around this by slightly rolling off the highs. If you wanted extended but clean highs, you have to climb the ladder to the mid-end models.
I feel you should not limit your speaker choices based on your receiver. I have a strong feeling you will upgrade to a better AV/stereo amp once you lay your hands on a good bookshelf speakers. I thought the dynaudio aud 42 (not the SE version) would be available around 30k. Why don’t you check with the soundsmiths.. If you can pull this one off, you will never regret it Do check out the PSB and Monitor audio models too.
particleman
Stammgast
#25 erstellt: 15. Apr 2006, 09:00

square_wave schrieb:
The B&W DM series have always been a bit hot (sharp) for my ears. This is a problem which you will encounter with entry level models from almost all brands. The wharfedales have worked around this by slightly rolling off the highs. If you wanted extended but clean highs, you have to climb the ladder to the mid-end models.
I feel you should not limit your speaker choices based on your receiver. I have a strong feeling you will upgrade to a better AV/stereo amp once you lay your hands on a good bookshelf speakers. I thought the dynaudio aud 42 (not the SE version) would be available around 30k. Why don’t you check with the soundsmiths.. If you can pull this one off, you will never regret it Do check out the PSB and Monitor audio models too.

Thanks, square_wave. Unfortunately I haven't been able to locate any contact details for SoundSmith (Google brings up nothing) so I'd kindly request my fellow HiFi'ers for the same. Thanks also for the B&W tip, I have heard that the 700s are the lowest B&Ws worth considering but they are pretty darn expensive. If I can get the Dynaudio 42 for 30k that would definitely be something. I'm glad to hear you mention the PSB as they are looking pretty good given their affordability. And you're right about the receiver upgrade -- I have a feeling I'll be looking for a good multi-channel amp before the year is out.
square_wave
Inventar
#26 erstellt: 15. Apr 2006, 09:08
Veeryavanta Pariat Bhide

Business Head, The Soundsmiths

218 Commerce House, N. Master Road

Fort, Mumbai 400023

Tel: (022) 56351888

Fax: (022) 56351889

www.thesoundsmiths.com
Shahrukh
Inventar
#27 erstellt: 15. Apr 2006, 09:12

particleman schrieb:
Lets hope the Quads are sensibly priced.



29K when I last priced them!
particleman
Stammgast
#28 erstellt: 15. Apr 2006, 09:19

Shahrukh schrieb:
29K when I last priced them!


And I'm auditioning them today! Hurray!!
particleman
Stammgast
#29 erstellt: 15. Apr 2006, 09:20

square_wave schrieb:
Veeryavanta Pariat Bhide
Business Head, The Soundsmiths
218 Commerce House, N. Master Road
Fort, Mumbai 400023
Tel: (022) 56351888
Fax: (022) 56351889
www.thesoundsmiths.com


That was so fast it made my head spin. Thanks a ton, square_wave!
Arj
Inventar
#30 erstellt: 15. Apr 2006, 10:21
if the dyns are only 30K thats your best buy !
soulforged
Stammgast
#31 erstellt: 17. Apr 2006, 04:11
Hey Particleman...

If your ultimate goal is to assemble a 5.1 setup...maybe you should also give Def Tech a try...even Mordaunt Short...they both are very good for HTS and are pretty musical at the same time...
particleman
Stammgast
#32 erstellt: 17. Apr 2006, 06:00

soulforged schrieb:
Hey Particleman...

If your ultimate goal is to assemble a 5.1 setup...maybe you should also give Def Tech a try...even Mordaunt Short...they both are very good for HTS and are pretty musical at the same time...


Thanks, but I am beginning to question if I need 5.1. I have already a system that does 5.1 (albeit badly). But I am beginning to agree with audiophiles who say stereo is all you'll need. I have therefore arrived at something of a conclusion (2 posts down..)
particleman
Stammgast
#33 erstellt: 17. Apr 2006, 06:03

Arj schrieb:
if the dyns are only 30K thats your best buy !


Thanks, Arj. I am awaiting pricing and an audition from Lakozy and Soundsmiths. I now believe I was being too hasty as stated in my next post.
particleman
Stammgast
#34 erstellt: 17. Apr 2006, 06:24
I'd like to thank everyone who responded to this thread, your help has been extremely useful in guiding my (future) decision. However I feel rather guilty for continuing to use this forum as a personal counselling system. Therefore this is a conclusion of sorts (though needless to say, feedback is welcomed):

I now believe that my approach was rather skewed. I started out by trying to "mend" my 5.1 system by upgrading in phases. A rather enlightening session at Designer Audio's Quad demo room (thanks, Kshitij!) has finally driven home a point many have made to me. A pure stereo setup is far more satisfying than a 5.1 will ever be. Listening to a 50-year-old tube amp pour Andrea Bocelli's voice out of a Quad 22L provided more proof than necessary that 2-channel audio is the way to go.

Therefore I will now be concentrating my efforts on following a similar path (no tube though, got no dough, solid-state, 'll be my fate...sorry, I tend to do that). I have grudgingly let go of the idea of buying speakers right away (instant gratification strikes again!) -- instead I will save my money and essay to build the following configuration:

1) Quad 12L (21L too costly, darnit) or B&W 602 S3*.
2) NAD C352 Amplifier.
3) My existing DVD-player for audio, perhaps a Marantz or NAD CD player in future (preferably with SACD/DVD-Audio stereo mixdown support).

(* = this is a tough one: extensive reading suggests the 600 series is not worth considering, that the cabinet build is poor, the sound coloured and the highs exaggerated -- but to my uncivilised ears, it just sounds more pleasant than the Quad's unforgiving, somewhat reserved sound. True the Quad is built like a tank and possibly has superior internal wiring but I will have to agonise over this decision for a while. I am also tempted to save my money with the B&W 601 S3 whose 6.5" driver is the same size as the Quad 12L, and its front-ported design is a relief for setting up in my tiny room. This is going to be hard!)

So there it is. A long journey ahead but I expect the conclusion will be most pleasant. Many thanks to everyone who helped me out!
Arj
Inventar
#35 erstellt: 17. Apr 2006, 06:49

particleman schrieb:
I'd like to thank everyone who responded to this thread, your help has been extremely useful in guiding my (future) decision. However I feel rather guilty for continuing to use this forum as a personal counselling system. Therefore this is a conclusion of sorts (though needless to say, feedback is welcomed)


Well thats is exactly what this forum is all about... and all of us get a kick out of sharing experiences with others


particleman schrieb:


1) Quad 12L (21L too costly, darnit) or B&W 602 S3*.
2) NAD C352 Amplifier.


now comes the Fun part.. just in case you think your mind is resolute and it was so easy to decide

The 602 might sound like a great buy, but most people who went for it on most forums have been yearning for an upgrade in around 6 months time :). B&W gets good from it 700 series, the rest are mostly more of HT stuff. hence since you are not deciding now, try to be open about it till you finally do decide.

does the NAD 320 sound good to you.. the 352 is more powerful than really required for a Quad 12L. you also have the option of a Rotel RA01/02 to go with Quad, and that will sound a bit more clearer and "Unreserved" than the NAD.


Also if you like that EPOS is highly Value for money and have heard quite a few folks praising it these days.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#36 erstellt: 17. Apr 2006, 07:24
Hi particleman,
Dont want to confuse you but try and check out the Dali Ikon Bookshelves....they have got very good reviews and Dali is known for their natural Danish sound
square_wave
Inventar
#37 erstellt: 17. Apr 2006, 08:53

particleman schrieb:
I'd like to thank everyone who responded to this thread, your help has been extremely useful in guiding my (future) decision. However I feel rather guilty for continuing to use this forum as a personal counselling system. Therefore this is a conclusion of sorts (though needless to say, feedback is welcomed):

I now believe that my approach was rather skewed. I started out by trying to "mend" my 5.1 system by upgrading in phases. A rather enlightening session at Designer Audio's Quad demo room (thanks, Kshitij!) has finally driven home a point many have made to me. A pure stereo setup is far more satisfying than a 5.1 will ever be. Listening to a 50-year-old tube amp pour Andrea Bocelli's voice out of a Quad 22L provided more proof than necessary that 2-channel audio is the way to go.

Therefore I will now be concentrating my efforts on following a similar path (no tube though, got no dough, solid-state, 'll be my fate...sorry, I tend to do that). I have grudgingly let go of the idea of buying speakers right away (instant gratification strikes again!) -- instead I will save my money and essay to build the following configuration:

1) Quad 12L (21L too costly, darnit) or B&W 602 S3*.
2) NAD C352 Amplifier.
3) My existing DVD-player for audio, perhaps a Marantz or NAD CD player in future (preferably with SACD/DVD-Audio stereo mixdown support).

(* = this is a tough one: extensive reading suggests the 600 series is not worth considering, that the cabinet build is poor, the sound coloured and the highs exaggerated -- but to my uncivilised ears, it just sounds more pleasant than the Quad's unforgiving, somewhat reserved sound. True the Quad is built like a tank and possibly has superior internal wiring but I will have to agonise over this decision for a while. I am also tempted to save my money with the B&W 601 S3 whose 6.5" driver is the same size as the Quad 12L, and its front-ported design is a relief for setting up in my tiny room. This is going to be hard!)

So there it is. A long journey ahead but I expect the conclusion will be most pleasant. Many thanks to everyone who helped me out!


Good to hear that we have been of help.
Multi-channel is good if you have enough money to spend on high- quality multiple speakers but a quality two channel will beat a mediocre multi-channel setup any day. The nad C352 is a good choice. But there are others like Rotal RA02 and the Cambridge audio Azur 640A which are stellar amps depending on your taste. These three are the best out there in India for amps around 25k.
You need to listen to the B&W 600 series and the QUAD 12 in the same room with the same electronics to draw a conclusion. Believe me, there is no comparison. The quad is a much more cleaner and musical with natural tone and timbre than the 600 series. The 600 series is more of a fun speaker designed for the masses because it is the bread and butter series for the brand. Don’t look at the driver size and draw conclusions. There is much more to speaker design.
An entry level NAD, CA or Marantz cd player should float your boat nicely. My preference on a tight budget would be a CA Azur 540C cd player.


[Beitrag von square_wave am 17. Apr 2006, 08:56 bearbeitet]
particleman
Stammgast
#38 erstellt: 19. Apr 2006, 13:11
Many thanks for your continued guidance. I've just auditioned the Monitor Series speakers and I'm glad I did. The Bronze speaker (can't recall the model number) sounded decent but not impressive -- but hey it was a budget floorstander (30,000). Next I listened to the Monitor Audio Silver RS6 (also a floorstander, but Sanjay at Play seemed determined to convert me).

Very impressive speaker though I can't be too sure if it was just the contrast with the poorer Bronze that made it appear so. My budget is now getting away from me but I'm fairly sure that the RS6 would be worth the 55,000 asking price. Excellent range -- the highs seemed sharp at first but then not so much on some recordings. The scale really impressed me -- it did jazz, classical and r&b rather well. Not energetic enough to be a full-on rock speaker but then thats not what I want. I ought to compare it directly with the Quad 21L -- the Monitor just seemed "livelier" for lack of a better term, its highs added that sparkle I was looking for. I can hold out for a few months (with Prozac, of course) if it means saving up for a budget floorstander and a Cambridge amp (thanks, square_wave, great choice).

Arj, you're right. Its not an easy choice. Listening to Eric Clapton's Live In Hyde Park DVD made me yearn for a good multichannel setup all over again. (Un)luckily trying out the Chick Corea (A Very Special Concert) DVD today quickly burst that bubble -- awful, awful recording.

So now there's not just a speaker to be picked, but an amp, a player and the cables to boot.

I don't think I had this much trouble picking out a name for my niece (just kidding, big brother!)
square_wave
Inventar
#39 erstellt: 19. Apr 2006, 13:40
You are on the right track keep us posted...
Shahrukh
Inventar
#40 erstellt: 19. Apr 2006, 13:45

particleman schrieb:
....(also a floorstander, but Sanjay at Play seemed determined to convert me).


Obviously! It's better for his business!! He'd rather have you buying a more expensive floorstander from him than a cheaper bookshelf in a given range!

That said, I think MA Siver series is quite good. I'm yet to hear the "Silver" standmounts but their Bronze standmount model (B2 I think) is excellent VFM!

Enjoy your journey!
Arj
Inventar
#41 erstellt: 19. Apr 2006, 15:10

particleman schrieb:


Arj, you're right. Its not an easy choice. Listening to Eric Clapton's Live In Hyde Park DVD made me yearn for a good multichannel setup all over again. (Un)luckily trying out the Chick Corea (A Very Special Concert) DVD today quickly burst that bubble -- awful, awful recording.



Now thats very very dangerous territory.. technically it may be great but there are very few Truely Multichannel recordings (Many are just converted from older recordings) and hence IMHO not really worth it.

Also ration out your budget into a CDP/Amp/Speaker.. it is very easy to get sidetracked.

Your first apprach was very practical and objective based now you are entering into the the very familiar "confusion" stage which could end up with a Budget Vs Actuals problem !!!!

I would suggest to get a goos afordable speaker which works well with your AVR. maybe you can move on to a dedicated CDP or even an external DAC later (Like the Lite audio mentioned by Mombaywalla in Myriads thread), and then move on to an Amp

Dont get into the Floorstander Vs Bookshelf thing.. there is not much of difference between them.. there are Bookshelves with 38 Hz extension and floorstanders (Multidrive ones) which only doe 50 Hz. Hence what matters is design .

Usually for the same money you get a better deal with a Bookshelf, and with your budget you can easily buy a Dynaudio + a Lite DAC which will give you a much better overall sound.
particleman
Stammgast
#42 erstellt: 15. Sep 2007, 11:29
O mighty moderator(s), as you rush headlong at me -- scimitar drawn -- ready to strike me down with great fury for the unpardonable offence of reviving a 17-month old thread (!!), I ask for your mercy and a chance to explain...

I started this thread long ago to ask for your help in choosing a pair of speakers. I was moved by the volume and quality of help I received. However, a few personal (monetary) crises prevented me from making a purchase at the time.

Now I have finally decided to make my purchase -- a pair of Mordaunt Short Avant 904i floorstanders (don't laugh!). I felt I owed it to all the people who were so kind to me to inform you all of how this ended. A sense of closure (for me).

So there you have it - despite all your better advice I am going ahead and doing as my fool head wishes -- of course my tiny budget plays a big part too. However I am also convinced that "pure stereo" is the way to go! I have contacted FX Entertainment to help me get my hands on the Avant 904i. They have advertised a price of Rs. 14,083 so that made my decision a lot easier. In due course I will pair it with a Cambridge Audio 540A V2 amp (they are currently not in stock it seems). Then a 540C V2 CD player will follow.

As the saying goes, better to move slowly than to stand still (or whatever the hell it is, I'm not good with sayings). Better to make the most of my budget and move in the direction of building a good, albeit low-end, system than wait for a day I can get it all at once.

So in conclusion, thank you dear friends. I hope I have made the right choice.

Update: ...and once more I find myself vacillating: Avant 904i or Diamond 9.1? Great bookshelf or decent floorstander? Darn choices, why must it be so hard? No more hesitation...it's Go time!


[Beitrag von particleman am 15. Sep 2007, 15:17 bearbeitet]
Neutral
Stammgast
#43 erstellt: 15. Sep 2007, 17:04
Great,
Your Monitor Audios are budget beaters. And fairly heavy too. So not too much resonance. You will enjoy once you have it all together. Do post the dimensions of your room and folks here will be happy to give you suggestions on the placement.
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