My Drivers..i Finally got them!

Guys got the amplifier PCBs...
wow!
they are simply superb..
beautiful and smalllll!
Peter Daniel's work is marvelous
Will let u know the progress on the amps..
Cheers,
Sachi

Hi Sachi and Sandeep,

How difficult is it to build speakers? Let's say we want to build something simple like a bookshelf with a single full-range driver to be used as the rear speaker in a home theatre. Would it take a ton of effort? Sachi are you doing this in order to learn audio engineering or are you trying to build something that you couldn't get in the commercial market (like a lower price or better quality)?

From what I have read in this thread, I assume that you are putting together a 3-way floorstander. Is it going to be in the league of a great speaker like the Mission M74i?

Neutral, from what I understand the commercial 1 lakh a pair speakers have a budget of under 10k in driver. The bill of materials should be about 20% of the suggested retail value. The retail / distributer chain gets about 50% margin.

So if you do a good job with cross over design, construction, simulation and testing you should be able to get very decent speakers for what Sachi is investing. However, there are other variables and lots of R&D that manufacturers may have an advantage. But for a given price point a DIY kit will provide significantly better speakers.

Neutral schrieb:

Hi Sachi and Sandeep, How difficult is it to build speakers? Let's say we want to build something simple like a bookshelf with a single full-range driver to be used as the rear speaker in a home theatre. Would it take a ton of effort? Sachi are you doing this in order to learn audio engineering or are you trying to build something that you couldn't get in the commercial market (like a lower price or better quality)? From what I have read in this thread, I assume that you are putting together a 3-way floorstander. Is it going to be in the league of a great speaker like the Mission M74i?

It is difficult to build one from scratch..
If u want to just build one and gwith ur life tehn buying a kit would be best..
This is more for the fun of it and to gain knowledge..
The effort would be enormous for buiulding one from scratch..
At least a month of preparing urself by going thru books and websites regarding the technical aspects of loudspeaker response..
maybe a couple more months dedicated entirely for xover design(am not very coonfident here but am getting there thanks to Junia's books and info on numerous websites)

It will be like a 3 way floorstander but at least 5 inches smaller when compared to the Diamond 8.4s that i have..
so i will have to make a base(maybe one that can be filled with sand or lead shots)to get them to ear level..

I found the diamond 8.4 to be superior to the Mission 74i and am hoping (if everything goes well) that this speaker will outdo those that retail for 50k and more...
The way i see it the total cost of this project should cost me around 15-16k(maybe a couple more)..
this includes the speakers ,cabinets and a six channel amplifier..
effectively the entire active system!...
Yes ..it will be triamped!!

hsmraj schrieb:

Neutral, from what I understand the commercial 1 lakh a pair speakers have a budget of under 10k in driver. The bill of materials should be about 20% of the suggested retail value. The retail / distributer chain gets about 50% margin.

That's very true rajesh...
There are too many overheads that are accounted for when a retailer quotes u a price...they have to consider transportation ,labour,material,profit for the manufacturer,distributor margin,retailer margin...so u can just imagine the actual cost of the speaker..
The observation made by Rajesh is spot on(regarding the bill of materials to be 20% of the quoted price, maybe even less in some situations)

hsmraj schrieb:

So if you do a good job with cross over design, construction, simulation and testing you should be able to get very decent speakers for what Sachi is investing. However, there are other variables and lots of R&D that manufacturers may have an advantage. But for a given price point a DIY kit will provide significantly better speakers.

True again!
What the DIY person lacks is the R&D(he may have done some but will be limited to his immediate interests and projects on hand) and the equipment needed to test it..
But over time these can be accumulated and even shared among like minded individuals of a particular town or city by pooling their resources..
The best thing of DIY is there is an elimination of unwanted components in the signal chain allowing for a clean signal to be sent thru the amp section and to the speakers..
optimization and further optimization is the mantra for a DIYer..of course, unless he gets bored doing it and moves on to the next project..
Cheers,
Sachi

Sachi, except a few big brand names most of the equipment manufacturers do not have the numbers to drive the cost down.

Manufacturers like to keep the prices of products close to the maximum suggested prices. There is also a huge excess inventory in the chain at least at my place. The high margins help retailers be in business selliing a few pieces a month. It is very common to find gear from 2002 still in the chain.

There is also an element of esteem value associated with any high end product. Reducing the price tag is likely to affect their brand image.

BTW can anyone help with with shopping at the Metro in Blr. If you know what I mean, you can get some serious discounts for consumer electronics. PM me if you can help.

Sachi, send me a PM/email with detials of components and I will try to get your components on Monday while I am on travel.

hsmraj schrieb:

Manufacturers like to keep the prices of products close to the maximum suggested prices.

true...recently( around 6 moths ago) Adire audio drivers which were being sold direct as well as retail saw a jump in the prices ..
The factory prices(almost 35 to 40%less) were brought on par withthe retail prices to help their retailers to consolidate their positions while causing much heartache in the DIY community..
Most manufactureers are headed this way or are already there..

Thanks Rajesh and Sachi for enlightening me!

I didn't take you seriously at first on the 20% materials cost. I really feel sad to have wasted Rs 25,000 on a system that will sound only a third as good as your setup. The problem is I am at Mumbai. Otherwise, I would certainly have visited you. It would be a great learning experience.

However, what you have undertaken is pretty daunting. I would be willing to take on something a lot smaller like a single-driver surround speaker. The R&D for a full-range active floorstander would certainly be tough. Sachi, besides Junia and Rajesh, how many others are helping you?

It would be great if a Mumbai forum member would undertake such a project.

Well Neutral I would like to clarify a few facts. I think Sachi is getting lot of real help from Junia and not me.

I just offered Sachi help with procuring any components that Sachi may need. I have not been through the process of building speakers from ground up the way Sachi is.

Neutral, you may want to start with speaker placement and room treatments. Please check recent postings from Junia in this forum for more details.

You may also want to get yourself an SPL metre for $50. An omnidirectional microphone with associated electronics should cost you about $300.

You could use the experience gained to move up and make some nice 2 driver bookshelves. It all depends on the time, investment and commitment you are willing to put.

Sachi, you may want to add your comments based on your first hand experience.

Neutral schrieb:

I didn't take you seriously at first on the 20% materials cost. I really feel sad to have wasted Rs 25,000 on a system that will sound only a third as good as your setup. The problem is I am at Mumbai. Otherwise, I would certainly have visited you. It would be a great learning experience. However, what you have undertaken is pretty daunting. I would be willing to take on something a lot smaller like a single-driver surround speaker. The R&D for a full-range active floorstander would certainly be tough. Sachi, besides Junia and Rajesh, how many others are helping you? It would be great if a Mumbai forum member would undertake such a project.

Hey Neutral..
Let me assure u one thing...
not all DIY designs turn out to be good..this is a learning experience and am not havin a lot of expectations...But i don't mind if the effort pays off into something more creative and better sounding when i start on teh next project...
Since i am have only just arrived at the steps to the DIY route i have a lot to learn from many who have climbed a fair bit..Junia has been instrumental, he got me the drivers , alllowed me to take a look at his books(a treasure i must say)and even allowed me to make a copy for myself(spent 1k on Xerox alone..but no second thoughts abt that..best investment i made )not to mention the support that he has provided me and is almost as enthusiastic abt the project as i am..
Sandeep to is helpin me out in sortin out a few things..Rajesh offered to help me get some components( but i found out that i can source them here itself, thanks anyway Rajesh) and recently Edges offered some help in getting the cabinet made....
so a lot of things in the piepline taht needs to be filtered out and slowly but surely i will make it there..
Cheers,
Sachi

hsmraj schrieb:

I have not been through the process of building speakers from ground up the way Sachi is.

PLease rajesh u are making me feel embarassed...have not even started building it....but till then we have Junia and Sandeep who have built speakers from the ground up...

hsmraj schrieb:

Neutral, you may want to start with speaker placement and room treatments. Please check recent postings from Junia in this forum for more details. You may also want to get yourself an SPL metre for $50. An omnidirectional microphone with associated electronics should cost you about $300. You could use the experience gained to move up and make some nice 2 driver bookshelves. It all depends on the time, investment and commitment you are willing to put. Sachi, you may want to add your comments based on your first hand experience.

Neutral...u dont' need al that to start off building a good sounding speaker..for a start i would suggest that u fleece Vance Dickson's design and have it made..
all u need to do is get the drivers..
i have the book(Copy of Junia's original of course ) and he has designed some very good speakers with detailed specs regarding the cabinet and xover...
Let me know if u are interested...should not cost u more than 7 or 8 k for the drivers and add an additional 3-4 k for the rest of the components and u should have a kick ass speaker(just a rough estimate on the costs)

else if u want to design one on ur own..
just download the Winisd software..go thru the help file and start designing...
very simple ...even a novice can understand it..

Hi Guys,

Gosh Sachi you don't have to go on praising me like this !!

I was justing wanting to help !

I would be the happiest person to see you happy & content with your creation !! After all you will be bringing it to life !!!

Neutral if you can generate enough support from the Bombay forum members, we could build a pair of Active Demo speakers which will bring the roof down.

Dynaudio 24W 100 four of them in isobaric combination, 2 17W 75 in isobaric combination & one Esotar matched tweeter, PER side !! And three seperate amps again per side !!

I always wanted to build em speakers....but just no time & support.

If you don't want to build your speakers, like hsmraj said even placing your speakers in the right place & with minimum of room treatments you could get atleast a 25% improvement in your sound...if not more

Regards,

Junia

jsa_ind schrieb:

Gosh Sachi you don't have to go on praising me like this !!

Right...am stopping now

Neutral if you can generate enough support from the Bombay forum members, we could build a pair of Active Demo speakers which will bring the roof down. Dynaudio 24W 100 four of them in isobaric combination, 2 17W 75 in isobaric combination & one Esotar matched tweeter, PER side !! And three seperate amps again per side !!

WOW!...u had told me abt them but not gotten into the details..
those 10 inch drivers would really bring the roof down...u would need atleast 400watts powering the wofer section alone(Especially since u plan to go isobaric)...

I always wanted to build em speakers....but just no time & support.

Count me in(if u plan to bring them over to Bangalore i.e)am sure more a a couple of the DIY chaps in Bangalore would love to lend a hand .....
those speakers are going to be epic....and nothing short of an active setup would do them justice.

DEar Sachi,

Serious are you??

Here is the deal...if you can get your friends to put it together....I will get the very best of the world's speaker designers & amp designers to help out.

Did I tell you that Vance & Peter are personal friends of mine ?

I will also get Intech to fund the whole operation.

AS you know the very best of wood working tools are at my place...so hey we have got all the ingredents to pull this off.

Regards,

Junia.

P.S. There are also some Dynaudio Passive Radiators floating around. I wanted to build a Passive Radiator Dynaudio systems in my yonger days.......

Sachi and Junia, I will be honoured if you can count me in. I can definitely commit time during my week ends.

This is the proposed speaker setup that i am planning to build ..
Ur thoughts are more than welcome..

http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/7674/img015620pu.jpg


my drawing skills leave a lot to be desired..so excuse me..

The dimensions of the speaker are..(outer)
W=12inches
h=35inches
D=15inches...

and the midrange box is abt .4cubic feet(volume calculated using outer dimension)The midrange box will have a slant rear section to help mitigate standing waves..
Front baffle will be made with two layers of 3/4 inch MDF and the rest will be just 3/4 inch MDF..

oh!..and braces will be put above and below the woofer to reduce diffraction and also one will be made to fit the woofers' magnet snugly..
like a H section if u can imagine it..

jsa_ind schrieb:

DEar Sachi, Serious are you?? Here is the deal...if you can get your friends to put it together....I will get the very best of the world's speaker designers & amp designers to help out. Did I tell you that Vance & Peter are personal friends of mine ? I will also get Intech to fund the whole operation. AS you know the very best of wood working tools are at my place...so hey we have got all the ingredents to pull this off. Regards, Junia. P.S. There are also some Dynaudio Passive Radiators floating around. I wanted to build a Passive Radiator Dynaudio systems in my yonger days.......

Dear Junia,
i would not mind spending a couple or more of hours of my day desiging ur speaker(As soon as mine is done
)..but there are far more people who are much more competent in desinging a speaker than poor lil'me who is on his first voyage of discovery..a voyage filled with joys and despair..almost an oxymoron....
But i would love to be a part of whtaever u decide to do with those drivers..

Me discussing speaker design with the likes of Mr.Vance would be too overwhelming for me and too dull for him(cause he would have to keep explaining things to me )...nonetheless the opportuniity to learn a few things from the master himself is far too temopting for me to turn down..
Cheers,
Sachi

Dear Sachi,

Vance & the rest of the group all are made up of flesh & blood !!

Let me know when you want to start things up.

As you have seen in those yahoo messages quite a few senior speaker designers & amp designers are joining hands with Intech to come up with something really spectacular & at a minimum of costs...opps better shut up now

Regards,

Junia.

hsmraj...welcome to the party !!

benks...

could'nt help notice that you said you would use 2 3/4 inch mdf planks for the baffle.

make sure you bond them together properly, especially if you get to do it with heat and pressure. Over a period of time the two layers could warp at the joint. Better try and use one layer(a joint is always the weakest link).....a 1" mdf baffle to my mind would be enough.

These are just my thoughts.

Manek.

Dear Manke,
ur concerns are well founded..
however..after having gone thru the diy site and gettiing opinions from people..it seems a dual layer of 3/4 inch will be okay as long a the joint is made properly..
warping can occur..

To prevent his i will be using industrial strenght Araldite and finishing screws to hold them in place..
This layer of araldite is suppposed to form some kind of a differentiating sub-layer and is supposed to contribute to making the wood sounding dead..

benks wrote :

To prevent his i will be using industrial strenght Araldite and finishing screws to hold them in place..

you can try sourcing Liquid nails from US too..they have range of glues for such DIY projects....ya Araldite guys have a huge range too and they have an office in Mumbai form where you could procure them.

hi benks...

what is industrial strength araldite ? is it different from the araldite which we get, the two tube version ? If its different where could one procure it from ?

BTW I also wanted to use a two layered baffle but a couple of designers I spoke to warned me about using layers unless they are fused as one by heat and pressure. I also remember reading about a few horror stories on the net about layered baffles not done right...hence my post. If you have it under control then its Ok I guess.

manek.

manek wrote :

BTW I also wanted to use a two layered baffle but a couple of designers I spoke to warned me about using layers unless they are fused as one by heat and pressure

thats true I got a can of liquid nails once and it had be oven treated at a certain temp for stipulated time for glue strength..so lamination industries can offer you help who manufacture sandwich boards..I doubt if any carpentar can make the best possible use of them...


manek wrote :

what is industrial strength araldite ? is it different from the araldite which we get, the two tube version ? If its different where could one procure it from ?

ya very very diffrent..they have even acheived to glue layers to build a bridge in UK..houses, metal sheets....need i say more

am sorry to have misguided u there..
The araldite am spekeing of is the same one u are referring to ..i.e the two tube version..
I only referred to it as "industrial grade" cause it is used extensively in wood working..
guess it was a blooper on my part..
sorry..


regarding the fusing of two baffles..
well.like i said....the two panels would be held together with mails and allowed to dry....
of course having clamps(vices) to do the job would work even better..i'll keep ur comments in mind and decide whther to go for 1 inch MDF for the front baffle..i'll take a decision regarding this after speakeing to the carpenter today..

Sachi, any reason you want to stick to 3/4" MDF and not 1" MDF? The only reason why 3/4" MDF is prefered is relative ease of handling.

To the best of my knowledge Araldite is also available in drums for industrial purposes. In large quantities, it is not as expensive as it is when buying small tubes.

dear Rajesh,

ya Araldite is available in huge drums too..but not the conventional home use glue what sachi intends to use..they are purely for industrial purposes..and without proper treatment they are no better than glue in cello tapes..
benks i stroongly suggest you use Liquid nails..easy for your carpenter and better strenbth too...as Araldite involves mixing hardener and base these carps always screw up things.

Guys from Bangalore(particularly Kormangala)..
can u guys check this out for me and let me know the cost for pre laminated MDF (cherry finish)..

i don't know the exact address but the person gave this route on a DIYaudio thread

outer ring road...ends in a T junction...left to surjapur, rt to silk board jn (u'll see mantri, shobha sun city all at this place..) proceed towards silkboard/koramangala.. Its like a double road...either side of the road is armed forces trainig/firing range..keep moving..u'll find a small junction with couple of traffic islands..(there will be a gas station on ur rt., a huge lonely tree trunk on one of the islands.) Keep left and proceed further...on ur left u'll get a hospital...further down u get the another gas station...further down u'll find a dried up lake on ur rt..
next u'll hit a traffic signal (there will be some overhead high tension wires crossing the road) proceed further...at around 200 250 mts u'll find a huge timber mart to the rt... (its on the service road on ur rt...so u might have to go a lil further to get on to this road.)


If possible could u please also enquire the transportation costs from there to Basaveshwaranagar or Rajajinagar..

CHeeers,
sachi

benks,

MDF quality is important....

Nuwud as a brand is supposed to be very good MDF. There are grades....go for any Grade I board.

Manek.

Shops do not undertake to ship MDF/plyboard to your door. Just ask the shopkeeper to get a autorickshaw and have them tie it boards on the top. It should cost you approximately Rs. 150 to 200 for the rickshaw. Depending on the cops in the city now, it may not be an option in which you will have to pay higher for luggage auto or tempo.

Unless you know how to differenciate, it may be best to stick with known brand names. Nuwood is good but is pricy and need to add more for lamination.

Another dump sugestion would be to try out shops near Navarang, City market or DVG Road.

hey dude try some shops in west of chord road..the shop you're talking about is one among many in bangalore..may be the guy who sugggested stays closeby to that shop..there are innumerable dealers in MDF's in rajajinagar and competetive too..may be I can refer you to couple of them...

Hi Sachi, Junia, Mohan, and Rajesh

How much effort would go into building a subwoofer like the Lithos Terra 150. This is what I want:
Stereo sub with two 10" drivers
40 litres cabinet
120W continuous power handling
Frequency extension to 25 Hz at -3dB

Can you tell me what materials I will require and give me a rough estimate of the cost? If I build an active sub with a variable crossover, how much additional materials and effort would it entail? Are any Bombay based forum members prepared to help me on this venture?

Mohan , i'll check them out by today and tomorrow and arrive at a descision..
Nuwood is the standard brand that i savailable everywhaere so no problems there..
Rajesh i'll keep that in mind before purchasing..
Cheers,
Sachi

Dear Neutral,
Building subwoofer like terra is not a big problem coz i can make it
for meit would take probably a week to design and to build probably a week and what about the drivers. If you are looking for low cost then better go for the lithos itself.

I do have other subwoofer design whre the driver itself costs about 45k. The enclosure suppose to be 4k ( very robustly built )

Some time the design process is tedious. If you wanna start a business then the designin of all these will come into the consideration. What do u say regarding this. General bookshelf will come for relatively lower cost. But just dont think that only getting the drivers stuffing in the enclosure will work out.

As far as Lithos sub TERRA 150L this enclosure type is a Tri chamber 4th order bandpass 6db gain type. It has got 2 drivers inside and they act in Isobarik pushpull each driver is suppose to be at 91db so in pushpull they get about 94db so with enc gain you get 6db more so total about 100db. This sub will have more gain in specific region. The type of enclosures are best in efficiency but about quality? Probably yes and even no. some like such sound and some dont.

But man if you like lithos then go with it. But if you want something monster sub with same lithos technology. Then you can try something like that. Coz all this process sometimes gets very tedious.

Like forexample like I said for the sub that i wanted to try each driver itself will costs about 45k so but at the same time the sensitivity is verylow 82db coz the driver cone is about madeup of aluminium cone. I prefer this sub for audio purpose rather than for movies. It has RMS rating about 200WATTS RMS.

If you make this sub and wanna sell in the market generally wat other people does is they will sell this sub Manufacture cost is about 70k and the retail price will go to about 2 lakhs or so. Imagine how the hifi market is.

So what i say is trying this for some highend stuff makes difference.

For a sub which is in the price range of 15k or 20k the manufacture price will be about 8k or so... in 8k about 2k for driver and 3k to 3.5k for the subwoofer amp+ circuitry+everything and for the enclosure about 2.5k coz even the sub should look very nice.

so you get the quality of the driver about 2k in a sub which costs about 20k.

Even many of the tweakers and builders like this will like most of the custom built system. Even I found it over the net that the Krell LAT2 speakers are said to sound very nice but the people who build system according to their taste and requirements they said that The LAT speakers dont perfom as good as some of the systems that are bulit on their own. But this takes very long time.

Like even sometime if the commercially avialable speaker has 1 inch MDF enclosure the diy people use some morethickness and even very heavy guage internal wiring. Higher quality of capacitors and inductors. so if you are spending the about 1000 dollars then you will get atmost value for money. If you buy somethng about 1000 dollar speakers from a retailer then your VFM will be about 200 dollars at max. I belive in this.

Guys i just spoke with my carpenter..
will be starting work on the enclosure on thrusday. ..
have asked him to use 18mm MDF(exterior grade) ..
and on this he says some kind of new material has come..something like paper but wood..very thin..around 10rupees/sq ft...and it comes in a variety of finishes...will check it out and take a final descision then..
Will be using power tools for cutting and drilling holess....
Keep u posted on how things go..
Cheers,
Sachi

Somehow I have a strong feeling that you will be much happier with MDF. Some have tried to use vinyl/PVC for their audio properties.

Unless your carpenter has expertise building high end audio equipment, it may be wiser to use high quality MDF.

Rajesh, i will be using MDF...am open to the idea of using plywood(around 10 rs extra per square foot) of 18mm...
but only if there are enough assurances...
Cheers,
Sachi

I would still recomment MDF due to its acoustic properties. If you go with Nuwud, you may anyway spend much more than generic plywood.

Personally, I would more concerned about acoustics than asthetics for my first DIY project. You can always get professional finish on the speakers later. Do not compromise on the wood quality for prelaminated boards of inferior quality.

Nuwood is what i will be using...30/32 rupees per square foot
same here Rajesh...sonic quality is paramount..
will let u know on how things go...

hi sachu you said that you wanna some ics from me .. please tell me if you want.

cheers,
Sandeep

Sachi, I do not intend to intrude in your setup. Just wanted to share what is basically hear-say that I came across as part of my project to procure my system.

For others, I would like to point out some useful URLs

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-21459.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-15088.html

- Regards,
Rajesh

No itrusion at all rajesh...That thread is really useful...got my info about MDF and araldite from there itself..

Thanks Sandeep,

From what I understand the passive sub will cost Rs 2500 for the cabinet and Rs 2000 for drivers for a total cost of 4500. An active sub will cost Rs 8000 (after adding in Rs 3500 for electronics). This will be around 50% of the cost of taking it from the market.

I want to make the sub as a learning experience. A sub would also produce the deep bass to complement my bookshelfs. If you could point me to a site that explains how to design simple subs, I would be grateful. I want to start small. Just need to go down to 25Hz and at least 80W of continuous power. Efficiency of at least 90 dB. Don't want to do anything expensive since this is first project and many things could go wrong.

In general finding an subwoofer (raw driver for the requirement ) that too in that price. Do u know anybody who can manufacture subwoofer drivers or any subwoofer driver sales in Bangalore?

cheers,
Sandeep

Sandeep, I am based at Mumbai. Does one get drivers off the shelf or will I have to request Junia to import one or two for me?

Any ideas how to design a subsonic and supersonic filters for the sub? Are the power packs freely available? I don't want to get into making my own electronics?

Dear Neutral,

Sub woofer building is far complex as what it appears to be.

You may want to check out

http://www.diysubwoofers.org/


http://www.partsexpr...=300-808&ctab=4#Tabs

Regards,

Junia

Neutral i know a person who can supply home brewn drivers..
He is a Diyaudio chap from India..
There are two(As far as i know)..one is hunter audio and the other is Arasuk from bangalore..
Let me knwo if u are serious abt this..
the most difficult thing to procure in India for building a sub is an ampifier..
For this u can either build one(which may be a bit duanting for u i guess) or import one from the US..
Like Junia says, there is a lot of things that u need to think abt before builing a sub..

i would sggest u start going thru websites that offer info regarding building your own speakers so that u become familiar with the concepts that are essential..u need to decide if u are willing to spend money...if u are thinking of saving money then DIY is not the route...it is more for the fun of it ...u may end up spending more thatn a commercial sub but it is the journey that makes it worth it..
Cheers,
Sachi