Pulz versus Sonodyne

you are absolutely right Abhi. One of my friend in Singapore is using RF3 with Rotel RB1080 (200watts rms/ch amp & some bryston pre) it was amazing....

Arj> my observations are you can drive RF3 with any low power amp & also it's like if you own a Klipsch - you are free from hunting amps But still, I came accross that thunderaneus & kicking on your chest bass with only some meaty amps. Hence my opinion is those bass drivers can show their power only with quality & powerful amps.

i was there when myself and sub heard the Puccinni along with his RFs..everything other than the lows were very good.
the ows were hardly prtesent..
hell , even his old sonodyne blew the puccini in that department.

I do not believe the sonodyne has better bass than the Puccini. It is just that amps like sonodyne, cosmic and their brethren elsewhere in japan like pioneer, kenwood etc... lacks detail in frequency extremes. So you get a loud thump which sounds very impressive. You get the feeling that there is more low end energy which is actually fatiguing to say the least. The better the amp, more will be the detail and cleanliness in the frequencies. This is my opinion.
I agree the Arj. If you hang out in the klipsch forum, you see lot of people preferring low power-high quality amps with klipsch to attain sonic nirvana. Most people buy klipsch for this freedom. As I said, it is all about system-synergy. It has nothing to do with high-power.
It is more difficult to drive a B&W DM 302 which dips to 3.1 ohms and it is the least expensive model they sell...

square_wave schrieb:

I do not believe the sonodyne has better bass than the Puccini. It is just that amps like sonodyne, cosmic and their brethren elsewhere in japan like pioneer, kenwood etc... lacks detail in frequency extremes. So you get a loud thump which sounds very impressive. You get the feeling that there is more low end energy which is actually fatiguing to say the least. The better the amp, more will be the detail and cleanliness in the frequencies. This is my opinion.

You certainly seem to jump to conclusions whenever something is said..
u paranoid or someting..
and what the hell do u mean by "So you get a loud thump which sounds very impressive"
u think i cannot read between the lines..
u are subtly trying to insinuate that I cannot discern sonic qualities where as u think you are well endowed in this.
I find it reprehensible that there are some persons here who make fatuos statements and make judgements on other people's abilities.
All i can say is that you are so blinded by the commercialisation of the industry that u can't distinguish facts from fiction....and talk about being hypocritical..
geez! where do these chaps come from...

You certainly seem to jump to conclusions whenever something is said.. u paranoid or someting.. and what the hell do u mean by "So you get a loud thump which sounds very impressive" u think i cannot read between the lines.. u are subtly trying to insinuate that I cannot discern sonic qualities where as u think you are well endowed in this. I find it reprehensible that there are some persons here who make fatuos statements and make judgements on other people's abilities. All i can say is that you are so blinded by the commercialisation of the industry that u can't distinguish facts from fiction....and talk about being hypocritical.. geez! where do these chaps come from...

dear benks..cool it dude..we know you r da dude when you started off with your project..BTW hows your stuff..eager to listen to never made by anyone here ----lo an active monitor..

I do not believe the sonodyne has better bass than the Puccini. It is just that amps like sonodyne, cosmic and their brethren elsewhere in japan like pioneer, kenwood etc... lacks detail in frequency extremes. So you get a loud thump which sounds very impressive. You get the feeling that there is more low end energy which is actually fatiguing to say the least. The better the amp, more will be the detail and cleanliness in the frequencies. This is my opinion.

Dear Sq wave...yes AA was weak in low end...NAD had tighter bass..I beg to disagree that cleanliness in the frequencies will diminish them and I shake my head in the same asumption.. fact is it has to be more rock solid if the amp has more detail and better heard.

square_wave schrieb:

I do not believe the sonodyne has better bass than the Puccini. It is just that amps like sonodyne, cosmic and their brethren elsewhere in japan like pioneer, kenwood etc... lacks detail in frequency extremes. So you get a loud thump which sounds very impressive. You get the feeling that there is more low end energy which is actually fatiguing to say the least. The better the amp, more will be the detail and cleanliness in the frequencies. This is my opinion.

Hey Square_wave,
You seem to have a lot of predetermined mindset and reservations in your mind about these brands and you never seem to get over it even by chance.
These brands may not be all that hifi but they do have some credentials and they have proved their armour at many instances.
Man its easy to say that a Benz is better than Maruti but you have to be really open to appreciate what Maruti offers.
You seem to be totally closed in that regard. You dont seem to think twice commenting on a product even if you have not seen it (forget about hearing it). Thats Bad.

Sq wave as you have always stood by suggesting everyone to listen before concluding...I don't think you've ever listened to sonodyne with Rf's so it would be wrong for you to comment that A was better than B..i don't claim it has the best blah blah blah..and please if I had to run behind loud thumps then I would've picked up a combo from Sony with airport display than trying this way..

I have owned sonodyne, cosmic, kenwood, pioneer, fisher amps in the past. This is my conclusion from my experiences. I have played them with at least a dozen speakers including bose 401, old b&w models. Your experience may vary.I can only talk from my experiences.
Sub,
I never implied that you were impressed with a "loud thump". Sorry if the message came across like that. I was just conveying my general experience with these makes.

I was just conveying my general experience with these makes.

never mind i agree they are the same wine in diffrent bottles..any idea when can i have a listen of AP's with NAd

I dont know if Cosmic was ever so popular for home audio.
I see people use them for commercial purpose.

Sonodyne is quite different in that respect, its always been associated with home audio and only because it doesnt have good marketing tactics that even today people dont know them. Moreover they are not priced in the range of hi-end audio, they are always priced at the middle class levels and what they offer is better than mass-market japanese products. When I bought my Sonodyne, the other options I had in the same price band was Philips PowerHouse (new and hot arrival to indian market) and similar products from BPL.
Sonodyne was an easy winner and I didnt pay anything extra for it...just the 8k odd bucks which I would have anyway paid for any other system.
Then Sonodyne came up with the Uranus systems, the best one being the UranusII (one Sub-Boss owns at around 24k). The UranusI was priced at 12k and that could beat any digital compo that had arrived in those years (90s).
Even today when you visit a Sonodyne showroom and listen to their HT packages, you would be happy to say the least, for the kind of sound they offer within a budget they have to be cheered not condemned all the way.
So its not as easy as you say square_wave, they have done a good job in giving the Indian customers better products than the Japanese counterparts.
Now that there are many good hifi brands available in India at competetive prices that Sonodyne and its peers face the real challenge. We have to actually wait and see how they come up with it.

Now I am seeing a new name in amplifiers being mentioned, Cosmic. Never heard of this before. Who makes it, and what are the models available?

Cosmic is not available anymore..they had int amplifiers and graphic equalisers. i think it was a bangalore based company.

Cosmic used to pretty good. They including “Woodstock” were in the game before sonodyne came along. I think they were based in delhi. I have a friend in Bangalore who drives a proac studio 125 with a 12 year old cosmic amp with pretty good results. As with all budget amps, they have their drawbacks when it comes to control and detail. But I like them better than sonodynes.

An old chap with old Sony floorstanders made of teak had a cosmic amp with cosmic eq and Sony SEQ555..SEQ555 is one wonderful equaliser..way ahead of it's time. Have anyone seeen one???, Cosmic was sounding very good and I have an impression they were more clinical than warm..

Equalizer in high-end audio? I thought mere mentioning of that word is a taboo! Why would one need an equalizer anyway, if his system already delivers ruler flat response? Any thoughts?

I'm talking of days when CD's were not yet here and only BASF, Cro2, Maetal tapes were doing rounds...

kspv,

graphic equalizers were used to compensate for whatever you thought was missing in the system sound output, i had one too and had fun with it....it was in those cosmic, sonodyne, sony, akai, arphi days... :-) have a lot of pleasant memories with those systems as well.

Yah and there are people like these also, A friend of mine had a Sonodyne Rack System (I think it was UranusII full series) with a TT, Double Cassette Player with a built in Pre-amp, a power amp, and a 11 band graphic equalizer and 2 monitor size speakers 100 watts per channel all from Sonodyne in a rack. Actually his Dad had bought it for their living room and I used to fancy when I would have something like that and then One fine day he told me happily that his Dad has got a new Sony hifi system (mini compo) and when I asked him about his Sonodyne he said his Dad has sold it to a Audio cassette store guy for Rs.6000

Whether I should laugh or cry was my confusion then.

11 band graphic equalizer

dude it's 12 band equaliser....I still have it connected to tapedeck....

Give it to me...

Give it to me

dude there was a lovely hardly used int amp + tapedeck + equaliser + speakers for 10k..excellent condition...I think its sold..

the beauty of this equaliser is you get 12db gain when the most are limited to 6 or 10 db.

There are some who vouch that equalization is necessary in high-end audio to "correct" room acoustics. They point to the fact that rooms enhance or diminish different sound frequencies differently, and so what finally one hears is not exactly a flat-frequency response. So they say equalization is necessary. Use of equalization is more common in P.A. systems to get all the frequencies across to all the audience.

However, it is generally accepted that in high-end audio, the problems in time-domain (which are responsible for augumentation of certain frequencies in some rooms) can not be set right by making corrections in frequency-domain. A good piano placed in a bad room, will still sound like a "good piano placed in a bad-room" and vice-versa.

Human ears are evolutionarily set to detect the timing differences, even if you use all the equalization and balance all the frequencies in a room. For an ancient man, detecting time difference (how far a lion's roar is compared to a chirping cricket?) had more survival value than detecting frequency differences.

Cosmic !!!

My very first system, back in the Pre- Cambrian era was a Cosmic.In those days a Cosmic Lab amp with a pair of Arphi speaker was considered to be Audio Nirvana.

Sonodyne and Norge anre the only two brands that I know of, that survive from that age.

I am not too sure if Cosmic and their ilk would fare well in comparison to the systems today.However that is my humble opinion

K

I am not too sure if Cosmic and their ilk would fare well in comparison to the systems today.However that is my humble opinion

krish don't be so indiffrent to thost ol chaps..I still see some chaps enjoying Cosmic..will bet much better than a Pioneer or a yamaha int amp..However that is my humble opinion

Some of these old amps including some models from cosmic, sansui, akai, pioneer were quite good compared to some new integrateds. In fact there are forums dedicated to some of these amps. There are quite a number of people who mod these amps to perfection to avail of the benefits of newer parts while maintaining the basics intact. I frankly do not have experience with the sonodyne with a RF3. My comments were based on some sonodyne amps I have heard in the past including the one I owned for several months. My experience was bad and I never liked the voicing of sonodyne speakers too. They sound “sucked out” in the mids department and have a “party sound” voicing to them which I frankly have an aversion to. I will take a wharfedale over them anyday at the same price range. My overall experience with sonodyne has been quite bad. But I agree that they give a very good alternative to imported mass-market Japanese products provided you like the voicing. There may be good products or even good combinations from them and I have not heard all. So I reserve my comments…………sorry If my comments came across as rash…..

So I reserve my comments…………sorry If my comments came across as rash…..

sq wave you don't need to ...as every one here always bias their opinion according to their experiences..thats human nature.. Thats true sonodyne have weak mids , but the horns seem to compensate with it when you set all tone controls flat and bye pass the high filter it sounds lil better...As said ealier and as always I still stand by that AA had the best mids....Hariprasad flute...Jagjit singh,,..hmm incredible...but pop, trance...

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

So I reserve my comments…………sorry If my comments came across as rash….. As said ealier and as always I still stand by that AA had the best mids....Hariprasad flute...Jagjit singh,,..hmm incredible...but pop, trance... :?

Man I suppose you havent heard the Quad Pre-Power at Total sound (he has sold off the Nad + Rotel combo he had before and replaced them with this Quad combo) you will be blown away by miles. Its awesome and guys who haven heard them really are missing something. Again the strength lies in their awesome mids and sweet highs but for Rock, Pop, Trance its ...you would require a good musical sub to enjoy Rock and Pop stuffs.

BTW I have heard Cosmic in the late 90s in a few audio shops, they were using the latest variants of Cosmic and it was no good for home audio, just too treblish as if a cheap hi-filter has been fitted and almost without mids. Maybe the older Cosmics (I have seen some vintage cosmic stuffs but didnt hear them) were better. But I have to say that Sonodyne has improved with time, it has tried to keep pace with latest audio trends (now HT) and done things better and better. Even now I own a Sonodyne Int amp around 25 years old, its not as good as its later generation.

As far as Wharfdale vs Sonodyne is concerned, thats the competition that I was talking about and we have to wait and see how things shape up. Afterall Wharfdale is a much older company than Sonodyne...

Sonodyne's amps may be outclassed by Nad and Pulz not to mention expensive brands like Audio Analogue and Plinius.

But Sonodyne's flagship floorstanders, the Sonus 2605 is an excellent speaker that does well for both music and home theater. I have heard Celine on it and it holds it's own against both imports and local stuff. It is very heavily built (around 20 kg) and can handle power easily.

However Sonodyne's budget flrs, the 1605 sounds compromised with a bright frequency response. So you need to be picky with this brand.

Can anyone here tell me what's a studio monitor? Would they be better buys than regular bookshelfs (at a given price point)?

may be outclassed by Nad and Pulz not to mention expensive brands like Audio Analogue and Plinius.

I never knew NAD and Pulz share the same slot and Audio Ananlogue with Plinius.Friend you really need to grow up how could you stack Pulz next to NAD. NAD is way ahead in all counts as well as Plinius ahead of Audio Ananlogue.

Can anyone here tell me what's a studio monitor

bigger than bookshelves and smaller than a floorstander.

Say Trojan,

When did you do an A-B comparison of the brands in question? Please tell me the partnering equipments used, the speaker characteristics in terms of sensitivity, flrs or bookshelf etc.

I have actually performed an A-B comparison of Pulz and Nad amps at Lithos showroom in Bandra. Speakers used were Noa 1 sub-sats. And after careful listening for half an hour concluded that the sound quality of both is neutral and of the same class. Nad does have other advantages like a remote, but doesn't win on sound quality.

The Puccini and Plinius are both high-end amps but they differ considerably in price. So comparing sound is not relevant.

I have actually performed an A-B comparison of Pulz and Nad amps at Lithos showroom in Bandra. Speakers used were Noa 1 sub-sats. And after careful listening for half an hour concluded that the sound quality of both is neutral and of the same class. Nad does have other advantages like a remote, but doesn't win on sound quality.

Neutral,

Noah sub sats are not the speakers meant for NAd, maybe Pulz sounded good with them, but NAD deserves better. You do an A-B with better speakers and then conclude.BTW no amp will be judged with a sub sat combo but a proper pair of stereo speakers placed appropriately to determine it's depth, soundstaging, imaging, detailing, openess etc.

BTW the NAD rajiv has is the older nad320 and not the nad 320bee which has been in circulation around 3 yrs.

BTW even the older 320 was definately better then the pulz in Rajiv's demo. It was very apparent to me.
Even with just the sats...it was very clear that the nad definately had better mids and highs. When I was there the sub was driven with a dedicated pulz power amp so that was common for the entire audition, hence cant make comments on the bass part.

Manek.

Cosmic was manufactured in Mumbai, somewhere near the intl airport. Remember going to their factory in that vicinity with my father to pick up a Cosmic 2000 (I think! They had a Cosmic 5000 which my cousin had) and a Cosmic-Akai tape deck. Arphi speakers was our next buy. These were manufactured by a school friend(who alas is no more), Adi Pestomjamas.
BTW this was in the mid/late 70s!
Jeeves

Thanks Mohan and Manek,

I fully agree that you need high-end bookshelves to test these amps. My statement would be valid only for the Noa 1s with a Pioneer DVD player source in Rajiv's hall room. So testing with other speakers could certainly yield other results. Incidentally I consider the Noa 1s to be very decent speakers for their price point. Warm and classy.

Manek, I respect your judgement. You have spent many more years in audio than me. So you will have a better perspective on imaging and sound stage depth. But to my relatively inexperienced ears, sound tonality and vocal clarity was good in both amps. I personally would have preferred the Nad to the Pulz but opted for the RS-250 power amp since the Indian price was half that of the Nad and I just didn't have the cash.

I personally would have preferred the Nad to the Pulz but opted for the RS-250 power amp since the Indian price was half that of the Nad and I just didn't have the cash

hey man nobody has enough cash for Hifi..it's not hard n fast rule that you should like NAD over Pulz..if Pulz trips you then enjoy it.

boss is right again.....btw, that poweramp with gain controls(RS 250???) is also nice for the price, make no mistake about it.....maybe with better internal parts and a few mods it may just be very nice.

I hear that pulz amp (RS250) is quite solid and can take low impedance spkr loads very well....can anyone verify this for me ?

Manek.

Hey Manek, have to agree with you on same. i'm very very happy wiht pulz though and i dont feel i have wasted my money with same. i'm sure this would be an integral part of my system for a long time. i would however love to own a NAD...ASAP! it's addictive to say the least. Mids and highs are just perfect, just the way i like it and for 21k...guys..it's a steal, anyday.
Also it's just 6k more than the Pulz pre-power...so. tough choice...i came to know about the Nad's only after i joined this forum. i must however thnk Pandam for introducing Pulz to me. BTW guys, Pulz is an rocking system to watch movies as well. put on the AC... turn out the light's...ahem...and you feel ur in a theater.

Hi Manek,

Pulz RS-250 power amp is dual mono with two transformers. This gives it a high current capability. It will take loads upto 4 ohms. It checks the impedance at startup and turns on only if the impedance is 4 ohms or greater. Its only weak point is those poorly made gain controls that are noisy when you turn them.

It drives a 3-driver bookshelf (Status 203) with 6 ohms impedance effortlessly. You can feel the bass and I never heard it clip. I don't have a 4 ohm load so can't test it.

BTW has Pulz reduced the prices on their speakers? They seem too costly for Indian products. And the white moss on the front grill pisses me off. They should have treated the wood!

Neckie,

have you found the gain controls noisy too?

Looks like the pulz amp is a good candidate for modding. It is made to a certain price point so don’t expect high-quality gain controls in them. Your amp needs atleast a sealed alps. There will be quite a few compromises in the parts which can be rectified by somebody who knows his job. I know somebody in Bangalore but you are in Mumbai. He is currently modding my friend’s rotel power amp. Look out for good modders in Mumbai and ask for advice.

yes, as a matter of fact the pulz rs250 could be a prime candidate for mods. I do agree. One never knows with a few mods like good gain controls and good IEC outlet, and a few caps in the right places could take this amp to the next level. Does anyone know whether the pulz amp is an indegenous design or an existing design being produced in India by pulz ?

Manek.

One version is that Pulz RS-250 was inspired by a particular Crown amplifier, and RS-250's design involves modification of transistors in the original design. Somebody, who examined the insides of both amplifiers, said this on www.diyaudio.com. But then, I guess most modern amplifiers are designed on identical philosophies, i.e., straight and symmetrical signal path, over-sized torroidal power supplies, so on and so forth, and so the interiors may look similar.

Hi Manek, Pulz RS-250 power amp is dual mono with two transformers. This gives it a high current capability. It will take loads upto 4 ohms. It checks the impedance at startup and turns on only if the impedance is 4 ohms or greater.

I wonder what that means...during playback the speakers with 4ohms load will dip down to 3 ohms or maybe een 2.5....what happens in that case ? When you switch on the amp there is no audio signal so how can it check for a 4 ohm impedance load from speaker ? I'm a bit confused. or does it check for the DCR ?

Manek.

the pulz pushes my speakers effectively under 3 ohms as well. as i'm runnin both by passive subs and satellites (both having imedances of 6 ohms) under the current setup.

neckie...have you measured your speakers to dip under 3 ohms ? How do you know that they dip low ?

Dont mind my probing please...

Manek.

Neckie might have added up the impedence of two parallelly connected speaker systems. 1/impedence of A + 1/impedence of B = total impedence the amplifier looks at. 1/6+1/6 = 3 ohms. The scenario he described can happen if he has parallelly connected, say, two Lithos Noa systems (each system has an impedence of 6 ohms). That's what he is saying, isn't it?

Neutral's posting, on hind-sight, may be right too. Pulz's protection circuit, like any other amp's protection circuit, checks for voltage spikes and line noise on start up. It also shuts down the amp at clipping. Since the impedence of a speaker will be definitely greater than 4 ohms (for both 4 ohm & 8 ohms speakers) when there is no signal from the source, it is possible that the protection circuit is designed to sense that kind of impedence at the start up. The impedence will actually go down below 4 ohms only when the music is playing, and there are sufficiently louder passages.

sadly , I dont find any specs for this amp on the pulz website so dont know whether it is rated/stable for 2 ohms as well like other amps.

Anybody have a brochure/specsheet of the pulz rs-250 ?

Manek.

Only once did I see the detailed specifications of Pulz systems with Mr. Mukesh Agarwal of Music Ranch (who is the dealer for this brand in Bangalore), 3rd Block, Jayanagar. Otherwise, you won't find them anywhere except the average RMS wattage rating. May be Mr. Milind Raorane will be able to send you a brochure.

hey Manek, kspv said it, i run my speakers on parallel connection. i was strongly adviced against doing so by pulz as they said i wud thn run into the risk of burning out my amp under certain conditions. still iwas able to run the same in a party for 8 hrs nonstop...maybei got lucky.