Need opinions on Yamaha rx-v461 and yamaha rx-v459, as well as speakers(Got marantz SR301 instead)

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sandipb
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#1 erstellt: 11. Nov 2007, 20:40

I would really appreciate advice from experienced folks here about which one out of yamaha rx-v461[1] or yamaha rx-v459[2] would be the right one to buy at this time.

[1]

RX-V461 : YAMAHA Audio and Video
[2]

RX-V459 : YAMAHA Audio and Video

I am getting both for similar pricing, but one in Delhi(461) and one in bangalore(459). I am from Bangalore. It seems difficult to get 461 in bangalore - Audio Planet doesn't have them and Vector Systems is giving me a ridiculous price(like the prices for the rest of their products). I will be in Delhi next week and would be able to pick it up from there. Who else can I contact regarding Yamaha prices in Bangalore, someone can can give me decent pricing with papers?(although I can consider the no-papers option if I can get a better model for the same price). My budget for AVR is about 15k, so even if I wanted to look at Marantz SR4001 or Denon AVR 1707, they would not come down so much, even without papers.

461 is a 5.1 system but 459 is a 6.1 one(doesn't make too much of a difference to me as long it is >= 5.1). The power of 461 seems to be a bit less than 459.

However, 461 has YPAO[3] and ipod dock possibility(wife would like it

).
The dealer in Delhi says 461 is newer. I cannot get hold of the product launch dates myself.

[3]

Amplifier Technology : YAMAHA Audio and Video

The speakers I am planning to get are either Mordaunt Short Avant 904i or the similar speakers from Wharfdale 9.x series (once I get a good audition of them, had a terrible one at vector systems).

The power specs of 461, for some reason is given for 6ohm loads and for 459 in 8ohm loads (Why would yamaha do that?).

Other speakers that I have heard of are Polk and Boston(also nice, but MS sounded better than Boston for my tastes). Some advice on these would also be appreciated - the Polk ones I had in mind were Monitor 40 or RTi 4

An opinion on the speakers would be appreciated too.

My 1-2 years plan is to move progressively from a 2 speakers(max Rs. 15-16k) setup to 2.1 and then 5.1. I plan to get the front two speakers first. My movies/music ratio is currently 80:20, but I feel that after a good setup in the house, I would listen to music as well, so this ration could reach 50:50.

Also how good would normal bookshelves be for rear speakers as compared to dipolars like MS Avant 903i? This is the only reason why I want to get floor standing ones now, rather than bookshelves. If the difference is not too much to be understood by non-audiophiles like me, then I can save some money and maybe get bookshelves for front right now.

Thanks,
Sandip

sandipb
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#2 erstellt: 11. Nov 2007, 20:43

...also, I forgot to add. How safe is it to get AVRs like the Yamaha one in airline check-in baggage?

Arj
Inventar

#3 erstellt: 12. Nov 2007, 01:43

sandipb schrieb:

...also, I forgot to add. How safe is it to get AVRs like the Yamaha one in airline check-in baggage? :P

Its Safe

regarding speakers, its a very personal choice so go by what you like, and you cannot go wrong with MS. (I would prefer it over the Wharfedale)

Fllorstanders Vs Bookshelf. the jury is still out on Music (it is a midrange Vs Bass extension thing). Since you have a very sensible upgrade plan already, you may find Bookshelves + 1 sub a much better proposition for Movies than floorstanders. its not too bad for music as well. but if the sub is not on the agenda now, the next best thing is to get a floorstander

for moviers dispersion is avery important hence the preference for dipoles/bipolar for the rear but direct firing bookshelves also do an equally good job.so no need to get hung up over it. although the placement of dipoles/bipolar speakers is easier while direct firing are a bit more "sensitive " to placement.

particleman
Stammgast

#4 erstellt: 12. Nov 2007, 09:51

Sandip, I'm sorry but this may not be the answer you wish to hear. As a Yamaha AVR owner myself I have to say that if music is your priority (over movies) then you will find yourself sorely disappointed by any entry-level Yamaha. I made a similar mistake a year ago - I asked myself "how bad can it really be?" and wow, was that answered ever so resoundingly. Don't get me wrong, its fine for movies (both DVD and TV) but any music sounds weak, pale, etc. I don't have anything against Yamaha - they make excellent products but just not at this price point.

Having said that, I am sure there are other options in your price range: Denon AVR-1507, Onkyo TX-SR304 and Marantz SR-301 come to mind. Of course Denon, Onkyo, Marantz owners on this forum may be better placed to comment on them.

Speaker-wise you're on the right track. Both Mordaunt Short Avant and Wharfedale Diamond are excellent choices (disclosure: I am a MS 906i owner myself). With MS, do consider the MS 914i (note the "1" in the second place) as they have slightly larger drivers on par with the Diamonds. Also the 904i is the floorstander version of the extremely capable 902i bookshelf (only 11k!) so if you plan to add speakers later, and move these to surrounds, you can shift a bit of your speaker budget over to the AVR (as above). Do also consider Monitor Audio BR2 bookshelf speakers - they are around 18k and may be an improvement on MS' sound.

sandipb
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#5 erstellt: 12. Nov 2007, 11:15

particleman schrieb:

Don't get me wrong, its fine for movies (both DVD and TV) but any music sounds weak, pale, etc. I don't have anything against Yamaha - they make excellent products but just not at this price point.

I totally understand your point. I was looking at Marantz 4001 myself, but the price difference was too much - I was being quoted 22k without papers, while the Yamaha ones are coming for 15k with papers. I still need to get Delhi prices because sadly, I am seeing a drastic difference of prices there and in Bangalore (almost 20% diff on the first quote!) If Delhi prices of Marantz are less than 20k, I might go in for that.

Having said that, I am sure there are other options in your price range: Denon AVR-1507, Onkyo TX-SR304 and Marantz SR-301 come to mind. Of course Denon, Onkyo, Marantz owners on this forum may be better placed to comment on them.

I saw a real bad review of Denon AVR-1507 in the latest what-hifi. That is the only reason I was not ready to accept anything less than 1707/1907.

How does the SR301 differ from the SR3001/4001? I see the former having 140w/c while the other two are 70-80w/c,. 3001/4001 have more decoding capabilities though.

Any idea of the street price of Onkyo SR304? Is it advisable to buy it though regular Onkyo distributors, or will these specialized audio shops give better prices?

Speaker-wise you're on the right track. Both Mordaunt Short Avant and Wharfedale Diamond are excellent choices (disclosure: I am a MS 906i owner myself). With MS, do consider the MS 914i (note the "1" in the second place) as they have slightly larger drivers on par with the Diamonds. Also the 904i is the floorstander version of the extremely capable 902i bookshelf (only 11k!) so if you plan to add speakers later, and move these to surrounds, you can shift a bit of your speaker budget over to the AVR (as above). Do also consider Monitor Audio BR2 bookshelf speakers - they are around 18k and may be an improvement on MS' sound.

Monitor Audio would be out - 18k for bookshelves is not what I can afford. Can go a max 13-14k on those. But I did mention 904i as the speakers I wanted to get. Are 904i available for 11k?? WHERE?? I am getting a quote of 18k(Audio Planet) in Bangalore and 14k from Delhi(FX). If I can get these for that price, nothing like it. That price difference itself can get me the marantz.

particleman
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#6 erstellt: 12. Nov 2007, 11:48

sandipb schrieb:

How does the SR301 differ from the SR3001/4001? ... Is it advisable to buy it though regular Onkyo distributors, or will these specialized audio shops give better prices?

Sorry I only have a vague idea of these brands and so can't comment. I was merely going by the prices cited for them on various web sites like hometheaters.ecrater.com, etc. and your budget.

sandipb schrieb:

Are 904i available for 11k?? WHERE?? I am getting a quote of 18k(Audio Planet) in Bangalore and 14k from Delhi(FX).

Oh no, I guess I phrased that poorly. I meant the 902i is priced at 11k and is worthy of consideration although its a bookshelf version of 904i. FX Entertainment *is* the best place to get them as they have the best prices and are the official dealers for MS/CA. 14k sounds right for 904i.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#7 erstellt: 12. Nov 2007, 19:32

Hi Sandip,
I recently had the opportunity to listen to a Marantz SR-301 (priced around 16k) and I was amazed by its musicality and drive. It beats most entry level dedicated stereo amps when it comes to music. It was comfortably driving a Dynaudio Audience 52SE and a Kef Q7 (both are demanding speakers). I have also heard them in HT mode and they make a terrific VFM. I would suggest you to look at them before anything else.

Regards
Abhi

sandipb
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#8 erstellt: 12. Nov 2007, 20:16

After several feedback like particleman's and abhi's, as well as several years of archives on hifi-forum(throughout last week I have been endlessly poring over hundreds of comments written over the years

), I am beginning to rethink my approach.

My money is precious, yes. An AVR can give me everything from music to movies, yes. But if I plan to remain in 2 or 2.1 for at least an year, then what good can an AVR give me that an integrated amp can't? If that is so, buying an AVR and keeping it in stereo mode for an year would probably be a waste of the investment and possible compromise to acoustics too(like in music as every one has said).

Point me if I am wrong here, but even if I spend the ~15k on a good stereo amp right now, I can use it very well for movies as well as stereo till I move to 5.1.

Believe me, till I started visiting the listening rooms in the past one week, I had no idea of what good equipment is capable of(the best experience I had was at Audio Planet, even with low-mid range speakers from Boston and MS). Before this, even connecting my TV out to my Creative 2.1 was a huge difference for a person like me. To properly appreciate good 2.1(even with low-end stuff that I am thinking of buying) would probably take me time.

So I am better off one year later for the next price band of AVRs, maybe the Marantz AVR5001 which I had been lusting for(how bad does it do feature-wise against the feature-laden Yamaha's?).

Just as an AVR might be inadequate for pure music, how bad will a stereo amp sound for movies?

I have upped my budget for a good AVR/stereo amp to 15-20k.

For stereo amps, I see FX's pricelist listing Cambridge Audio's 540A V2 for 18k and 640A V2 for 22k(I wonder whether these are pre-VAT or post-). Also, this month's AV max has praises for Yamaha AX-497(there is an RX-497 listed too at the back).

I also saw Sherwood's at the Jamo shop and their entry level amps and receivers seem surprisingly affordable. Surprising because their ad talks about them having a history of AV firsts. Has anyone here heard them?

Abhi, I have been seriously looking at SR-301 after particleman mentioned it. But it seems that in Bangalore, dealers bring down their prices only after I mention Delhi prices to them. And I haven't been able to get in touch with any Marantz dealer/pricelist in Delhi yet. Any leads?

sandipb
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#9 erstellt: 12. Nov 2007, 20:27

Do you get good once-an-year deals at the AV expos? There is one coming up in Chennai next month. Is it worth waiting for these dealers to come up with good deals at such shows?

Once this craze starts, it is difficult to wait ...

abhi.pani
Inventar

#10 erstellt: 13. Nov 2007, 11:52

Hi Sandip,
Marantz SR-5001 is an excellent choice. In stereo mode they beat most stereo amps in under 20-22k. So I guess, buying a stereo amp now for 15-20k and again buying a AVR5001 later is just waste of money. Rather you can just buy a Norge Concerto Gold 1000 amp for 10-11k now and keep using it till you can afford a Marantz AVR-5001. This Norge stereo amp is an excellent VFM product under 20k and should keep you happy for quite sometime. Later you can sell it off and just retain the 5001 for both stereo and HT.

particleman
Stammgast

#11 erstellt: 13. Nov 2007, 18:28

Not much to add to Abhi's wise words (as always). I would only like to say, as an owner of both a 5.1 and a stereo setup, you should take time to consider the decision of whether to buy an AVR or an Amp rather carefully.

Just as an AVR might be inadequate for pure music, how bad will a stereo amp sound for movies?

If you listen to movies and music in equal measure an amp may be a mistake. Abhi's suggestion is an excellent one. Cheap amp + great floorstanders for now, great AVR and other speakers later. Of course if you don't want a stop-gap measure then you already have a vote of confidence for the Marantz SR-301 AVR.

[Beitrag von particleman am 14. Nov 2007, 09:46 bearbeitet]

sandipb
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#12 erstellt: 13. Nov 2007, 21:28

I will audition the SR301 tomorrow if Audio Planet has it. I think they were giving me a decent price on this AVR anyway, and if it sounds good (from your votes, it seems so) it will shave ~5k off my bill!(I had almost finalized on the CA 540A, but was having second thoughts after reading somewhere about how it struggles to use a 90db speaker. Pity, it would have had a high SAF

).

The specs for SR301 mentions that it has an EI transformer while CA and even Norge Gold had toroidal transformers. How much of a difference does these kind of transformers make? This is a generic question. I understand that there are many factors which contribute to the quality/performance.

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#13 erstellt: 13. Nov 2007, 21:50

I don't know, for me, a budget AVR for movies (since u are 80% into movies), hands down it would be the Yamaha. The Marantz sounds too mellow to bring the sparkle out of surround channels. I would however need to do a fair comparison before coming to a proper conclusion on it. Suggest you try to audition both with the same set of speakers and source.

particleman
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#14 erstellt: 14. Nov 2007, 08:11

sandipb schrieb:

(I had almost finalized on the CA 540A, but was having second thoughts after reading somewhere about how it struggles to use a 90db speaker. Pity, it would have had a high SAF

As a 540A-V2 owner I am rather surprised to hear that. It hardly struggles to drive my MS 906i which has a measured sensitivity of around 86dB and is a 4 Ohm load. I have heard reports of it being used with Monitor Audio RS6 as well without any problems.

Krish
Stammgast

#15 erstellt: 14. Nov 2007, 11:05

sandipb schrieb:

So let's get you confused a lil' more

Let's begin with your predisposition.Is it

a) Movies primarily, then some music.
b) Fundamentally music, then movies
c) Both.
e) What kind of movies - Dialogue based stuff or the MI3 action packed variety?
f) What kind of music do you like ?
g) Do you 'sit down' to 'listen' to music or are you the kind that is happy for it to be playing in the background?

Cheers
K

[Beitrag von Krish am 14. Nov 2007, 11:07 bearbeitet]

sandipb
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#16 erstellt: 14. Nov 2007, 13:16

Krish schrieb:

So let's get you confused a lil' more

Ok. I am quite a bit into movies, while my music experience is primarily through my laptop/headphones or the Sansa mp3 player that I have.

But this is probably only because I dont have an audio setup at home yet. The best speakers I have are a creative 2.1 connected to my worldspace.

Afte a good audio setup, I would probably be listening more of music, so music is also important to me.

As particleman pointed out - a simple amp might make me miss out on the movie experience till I upgrade to a more expensive AVR later. That is why I am currently finalizing on either the Marantz SR-301 or the Yamaha RX-V461.

Marantz is reputed to place more stress of audio over video, while the Yamaha is supposed to be good for 5.1 and is also more fully featured.

Your turn.

sandipb
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#17 erstellt: 15. Nov 2007, 00:32

Thanks a lot, all of you, for helping me decide how to choose my first audio setup.

Today evening I got the Avant 904i speakers with the Marantz SR301 AVR.

Have been listening till late night. Such sound has not been emitted in my house before

. What is the kind of playing hours I should expect for the burning in of the speakers and the AVR?

With my DVD player, Tata Sky STB and worldspace connected to it, I have already ran out of inputs at the back. Only the front input is left.

At Audio Planet, I was advised not to exceed the volume beyond 56. I understand that the speakers are to be used till 100w max, while the AVR can push till 140. But other than actually turning up till there is speaker distortion, is there another way to find out the volume limit that I should comply with?

- Sandip

Krish
Stammgast

#18 erstellt: 15. Nov 2007, 08:14

sandipb schrieb:

Thanks a lot, all of you, for helping me decide how to choose my first audio setup.

Today evening I got the Avant 904i speakers with the Marantz SR301 AVR.

Have been listening till late night. Such sound has not been emitted in my house before

So just sit back and enjoy.All the best.

Cheers
k

abhi.pani
Inventar

#19 erstellt: 15. Nov 2007, 09:04

sandipb schrieb:

Thanks a lot, all of you, for helping me decide how to choose my first audio setup.

Today evening I got the Avant 904i speakers with the Marantz SR301 AVR.

Have been listening till late night. Such sound has not been emitted in my house before

Congrats buddy.....both of them are great choices

.
Dont worry about your AVR over-powering your speakers...it may happen the other way out though...The AVRS dont output more than 40-50 watts per channel (rms)...the specs are very over-rated but it is possible that if you go very loud, your amp may not be able to handle the speakers so that may cause distortion as well. As far as I know, you can pump up the volume without going to party levels and I dont think you would need to go louder than that.
And yes, distortion is the most common way to find out if your amp is clipping/distorting.

particleman
Stammgast

#20 erstellt: 15. Nov 2007, 09:44

sandipb schrieb:

Thanks a lot, all of you, for helping me decide how to choose my first audio setup.

Today evening I got the Avant 904i speakers with the Marantz SR301 AVR.

Have been listening till late night. Such sound has not been emitted in my house before

Wow, that was fast. Sounds like you made the right choices, Sandip. Congrats on your purchase and I wish you many hours of happy viewing/listening.

Don't worry about any traces of initial harshness with the 904is. The sound gets quite a bit smoother in a week or two (if you listen for about 1-2 hours a day). Just play with the positioning a bit because these are rear-ported speakers and need a bit of fuss. About 24 inches from the wall should be great. But YMMV. As for volume my own rule is to never venture into the region of top 25-30% volume level.

samchn07
Neuling