Indian products Versus Foreign products...who gives you the best deal ?

Hi All,

I have taken the liberty of quoting all of your inputs in a separate thread....I hope I don't get stoned to death because of this....I just thought the discussions were worth a separate thread and Neutral does not feel we hijacked his original thread !

Big Ears mentioned, that the quality of components used in most Indian manufactured items leaves a lot to be desired....judge for yourselves guys open an Indian pre or integrated amplifier and most likely you will see an open ended Pankaj potmeter...initially everything will work fine until a little dust enters in, then you have screeching & squalling as you operate the controls....open an average foreign pre or integrated amplifier and you will see a sealed Alps potmeter....

Take a transformer for example due to the mandatory CE, UL etc electrical regulations among a host of other stringent electrical specifications, the insulation on the transformer has to be of a certain class, without going into specific names I have seen Dalda tins used to make transformer sections...you don't have to believe me folks, just stroll down Lamington Road buy a normal adaptor of 1 amp test it under a load and see for yourselves that it was actually only 500 m amps & not 1 amp. In case you are wondering what happens when there is an instant surge and your equipment gives up the ghost, it was because the insulation or lamination gave way & you shorted the transformer out......now if there were standards that were enforced that wouldn't have happened. Yes there is ISI but is it enforceable? Are the rights of the customers protected...the answer is a no ! In the developed countries even if you want to you cannot buy stuff that is not approved by an Electrical authority....on in case anyone does decide to flout the rules there is a $ 50,000 dollar or equivalent fine with a one year non bailable jail term......

Space & time does not permit me to get into transistor, their rating, circuit filtration, etc....bottom line is that there are compromises in almost all Indian products.

Does that mean Indian stuff is not good ? To me the answer is a yes & no. Yes it is not good enough, as at the present because there are no Industry standards/regulations to go by, customers are only price conscious & don't know or couldn't be bothered about quality and want instant gratification instead of looking at their equipment from a long term investment point of view. No because they can easily ensure that quality components are put and serve the customer better. It doesn't cost much at all...20% 30% extra at the manufacture's level, which translates to a maximum of 10% increase to the retail cost.

Look at the Godrej refrigerators of old and of today...remarkable change...reason the multinationals all started to price their products in the same price range of Godrej, which made them to either shape up or ship out. I don't have to get into Godrej customer service now and of old....the writing is on the wall.

Question is Why cannot the foreign dealers/distributors come down from their high horses and compete at Indian prices and why cannot the Indian manufacturers beef up their quality checks & components ? To me it finally boils down to the same thing....you pay less for an Indian product, you think you have got a deal until you find that after repairs/replacement you could have probably been better off with a decent foreign product.

Why cannot we get an Indian product of an foreign quality & standards at an Indian price ? The answer lies with you folks...see what happen with Godrej you could force the audio industry to do the same, if you really want to make a difference.

I think forums like this should be used to educate the consumers what they should be looking for as to specifications & quality and demand that their rights are met. No longer would one need to get hoodwinked or pressurized by anyone any longer. Knowledge is power and it is available if you really desire the same.

Square Wave was mentioning about Indian speakers, let me take the liberty of dwelling on this from the perspective of being involved in the R&D of speaker manufacturing for a number of years...do you think that if a foreign brand was priced at the same level as an Indian brand would you have got the same components presently found in Indian speakers. Probably not.....it is the same equation...... competition brings out the best. Why is it that the importers are allowed to get way with murder as to prices & the Indian manufacturers stint on the components used ? The answer is because the customers don't know what their rights are. Am I saying the Indian speakers are not good...the answer is an emphatic NO....they are good....but for the money the customer is paying for they should be getting more. No longer do the customers have to hear tall stories of speakers bottoming out because of music content or boominess because of the room & poor imaging because of improper room acoustics. Place an equivalent properly designed foreign speaker similarly priced in the same environment and compare the performance & technical specification head to head and you will find out what you have been missing. You really don't know what you are missing when you don't or cannot make a proper comparison of speakers, due to the abnormalities of pricing.

This is all fine in theory but how does it translate into practicalities ?...one people have to be more informed..there are enough & more qualified individuals in this forum to share there knowledge freely, second question the person who you are dealing with as to purchases, we needn't get swayed to a point of blind belief just because one or two individuals with ulterior motives praise or recommend any individual product, third know your rights if you are paying your hard earned money, you are not doing a favor by purchasing any particular product. It is your money and you have a right to know all about your product, irritating as it may seem to the person who is trying to hard sell you a product lastly patronize companies who have a genuine interest in audio and who are not in it only for the money. The law of economics would force the rest to change should they want to survive.

I might be accused of ulterior motives being a manufacturer & distributor myself and I am prepared to face criticism on this count.....only remember I am a consumer & customer too.For whatever it is worth I am sick & tired of seeing the average Indian audiophiles being taken for a ride because of their innocence & gullibility, it is high time all this comes to a head. I hope this does sound as a warning bell to both the Indian foreign distributor & the Indian manufacturer because sooner then they can think exactly what has happened in the refrigeration / automobile industry would happen to the audio industry. Without getting into specifics I know of companies, based on discussions at exhibitions, who are preparing to use India as a base for exports thus spreading their costs and supplying the Indian markets with world class products at Indian prices.

I was discussing with someone the other day...audio products are going to be introduced that are fully upgradeable, modular exchangeable and having an excellent resale value...and very very competitively price. Thus an absolute novice could start off a basic system & upgrade and /or customize his system to meet his budget & his tastes. For all you computer geeks...think of how you could change just about everything in your hardware & yet run Windows XP comfortably....that is what I am trying to convey as to audio.................

Roshan & Arj mentioned about components & assembly lines of different companies being used ...and how everything boiled down to Design. I am inclined to agree to both of their views with an additional comment....it is time the Indian customer demands that while designing the Indian companies incorporate the best value for money components instead of indulging is components just to get by with a maximum of profit...yes there are exceptions but they are few & far in between.

As to SquareWave & Bigears dialogue of continuous improvement all I can say is that yes it also happens in the mid sector abroad, but sadly with the Indian companies I am inclined to believe that is not the case although I might be wrong here.....

All said & done this is turning out to be quite an interesting discussion......let us hope that these discussion turns into something productive for all in the days to come.

Regards,

Junia.

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jsa_ind

Hi All,

I will probably get shot by the time I get to India.....but here are
questions worth pondering upon

Why cannot we get foreign products at competitive prices ?

Intech is a manufacturer, a distributor and a consumer of various products.
The cost of manufacture is minuscule compared to all the margins which keep
being added as the goods are passed on from one level to the other. Why
cannot the Indian distribution chain live on reduced margins instead of
comparing & selling products at US prices and in some cases more then the US
prices ?

Okay there is Custom Duties, Octroi & stock moving slowly blah blah but it
still does not justify these atrocious prices ? There is also something
known as under invoicing....pious as anybody may claim themselves to
be.....I being from the industry know what goes on. Oh yes there is warranty
which customers in most cases are emotionally blackmailed into paying extra
monies. I as a customer have seen how I was bounced from dealer to
distributor to manufacturer when it came to fulfilling so called
warranties...to me it is just a ruse to extract extra monies. Very few
companies live up to their promises. In some cases they do live up, only to
be let down by their distribution chain.

Do you think if foreign products were available at affordable prices the
Indian audiophile circle would grow ? I think it would......

I know the first question that would be asked is "Put your money where your
mouth is.....well Sirs that is exactly what would happen. For those who
think that this is hype so be it...only time will tell. Quite frankly I
don\'t need to be selling Audio to make ends meet...I have other irons in
the fire. Truth be known they are quite a few other companies in India who
are doing audio on the side and hence can also spread out & lower their
costs

It is my mission to go about setting a trend that would make Audio more
affordable & enjoyable. I can only give the impetus...the rest would have to
come from the customers like you all.

Once the price is brought down, then let there be a healthy competition that
would only benefit the customer in the long run.

Lowering of prices would encourage local companies to get their act together
to increase their quality control & use better components as the gap between
the foreign & Indian goods narrow down.

Without getting into specific names & brands. Most Indian hi-fi loudspeakers
use a particular brand of local high frequency drivers which is supplied to
low end manufacturers abroad. If there was competitive competition they
would be forced to use imported high frequency drivers and/or higher priced
local products. The same can be said for resistors, currently 10% tolerance
resistors are used...if there was competition they would use 1% or .5%
tolerance resistors. I can go on as to transformer specifications &
capacitor tolerances, inductors etc.. but I don\'t want to bore you all with
technicalities.

As much as the distribution link is to be blamed for the imported products.
I feel that most Indian companies are getting away with murder by using
inferior components.

All this can only stop if customers demand their rights and gyrate towards
companies & products that offer a superior product at a competitive price.

I am ready for the brickbats..so throw them folks...I shall attempt to
defend my stance while you take pot shots at me !!

Regards,

Junia.

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big-ears

Dear Junia,

I am in total agreement with you here.

The duty rates charged by the Indian Govt are still steep today and at 250%
were simply outrageous in the days of yore! Imagine, a designer/manufacturer
putting in his blood and sweat into producing a product and getting a
fraction of that percentage as profit. Or a dealer blocking his money to
maintain stocks and getting nowhere near that percentage. And the Govt
milking us for our hard earned money to disappear into the great Indian
black hole...

My point exactly on the quality of components used by the Indian
manufacturers, I am sure they leave a lot to be desired. And we all know
that the better the quality of the components, the purer the quality of
sound.

I am sure the Indian audiophile circle would grow if quality products were
made available at reasonable prices. Competition can only benefit the
consumer. Remember the good old days when the Govt allowed us to buy only
Ambassadors and Premier Padminis? Where are they now?

Cheers

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Neutral

Hi Big-Ears,

I don\'t doubt that foreign components sound better if you can afford them.
B&W, Mission, Avant Garde, Bryston, Krell, and Magnepan would effortlessly
crush Indian competition. But at my budget of Rs 25,000 for amp + speakers,
only Indian stuff can be purchased.

I love audio but see no sense in spitting in the plate that I have to eat
from. That I could obtain balanced and relaxed sound at this price range is
itself to be commended.

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square_wave
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big-ears wrote:
Hi Neutral,

I wouldn't quite agree with you there. I am sure Manek and Arj have listened
to a lot of good foreign products to have arrived at this conclusion. I have
too, and I fully endorse their views here, my pride for the country
notwithstanding.

Indian companies have a miniscule market compared to the foreign ones who
are exposed to much wider markets and intense competition. They have huge
R&D facilities and efforts. Yamaha is a giant; it's annual R&D budget would
probably be more than Pulz's 5 years' turnover. I don't wish to demean Pulz,
I am just putting into perspective Yamaha's efforts. The competition and the
R&D ensures that the customer gets real good value for the money.

An audiophile product for Rs10000? I doubt you would ever find such an
animal, this is entry level.

If today you are happy with Lithos and Pulz and Sonodyne, good for you!
Maybe when you hear more of the renowned foreign ones, you too will
understand the difference!

Cheers
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I don't really agree with you here. Comparing niche Indian products like
lithos, pulz etc.. to mass market Japanese products like Yamaha is not fair.
Just because something is foreign and has got lot of R&D money does not give
you good quality products. I have owned and extensively listened to products
from companies like sansui, pioneer, sony, Onkyo, Yamaha etc.. When it comes
to audio, these companies make decent sounding source equipment like cd
players and cassette decks. Companies like Sansui, Onkyo and pioneer used to
make some decent integrated amps also. But the good models were very few and
they don't make them like that any more. These are mass market companies
driven by mass market economies and most of their amps and speakers are real
JUNK. I would say speakers made by Lithos, Acoustic portrait, Pulz are far
better than any of them. I own acoustic portrait speakers and I have
listened to most speaker-specialist "branded" stuff available in Bangalore
and I would say the competition starts only at around the 1 Lakh price
point. This is because of the high quality design, drivers and electronics
used in them. The drivers (typically used in branded speakers costing more
than a lakh) are personally matched by the designer and very low
tolerance/high quality electronics are used. I went and had a look when my
speakers were being made and I was pleasantly surprised by the size and
specification of the transformer in the crossover circuit. There are people
who do a good job in India. It is true you get better quality if you import
from specialist brands. But at what cost ?

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SUB_BOSS
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Square wave wrote :


There are people who do a good job in India. It is true you get better
quality if you import from specialist brands. But at what cost ?


Thats very true with the situation right now and what about the extra care
taken while assembling by these hobby driven guys than the balance sheet
driven big co\'s like Onkyo.

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binoymehra
I disaree with square wave. Speakers like Dynaudio Audience 42, or Quad
11L,12L which are with in 30K are very good speakers for the amount and they
have been hailed all over the world.
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square_wave
Very true. It is the personal attention to details that makes products like
these a better buy. Even I was scared to buy local when I could get a
branded speaker for the same price. I used to make speakers for my friends
when I was in college with bolton drivers and mdf cabinets. My dad was very
stingy with cash those days and the beer, bikes and girls needed money..) So
I knew what goes into speakers and I was able to defeat my mind block
easily. But there is a clear line that differentiates mass market Indian
companies and niche hobby driven guys like lithos, Acoustic portrait
etc..People need to be aware of this.
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Arj
Well, the question of Branded Vs Unbranded exists in ALL goods not just
Audio and the logic is just the same.

for me anything which is not expensive (Eg sub 3000) i might go for
unbranded. But anything above that, i do not mind sepnding more for Branded
primarily due to security and resale value;

With unbranded or grey market, even a 10 year guarantee is actually
valueless as it is purely on word of trust.
anything fortunate or unfortunate happens to the person ( getting a job
abroad, higher studies, financial ruin etc etc ) and all that guarantees are
void.

Another point is resale value. the resale value of unbranded crashes to
about 30% or even less the moment you have bought it and taken it home. A
branded would always have a value associated to it and something you can
research and compare at so many sites. Infact a cheaper second hand branded
component might give you a better resale value !

Neutral, you made a very valid point of Budget. in the end what you look for
is the Best sound within your budget. Nothing wrong with that. it is just
that you explore all options and then make an informed decisions. there are
no right or wrong decisions in this. there are only decisions which match or
do not match requirements.

There is nothing Wrong about Bumps and tizzs in recording..no rule which
says you should not like it. and everyone who owns a music system is under
no compulsion to be "what is perceived as being a audiophile". it goes
purely by what you like and what makes you feel good when listening to music
!

cheers
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big-ears
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I don't really agree with you here. Comparing niche Indian products like
lithos, pulz etc.. to mass market Japanese products like Yamaha is not fair.
Just because something is foreign and has got lot of R&D money does not give
you good quality products. I have owned and extensively listened to products
from companies like sansui, pioneer, sony, Onkyo, Yamaha etc.. When it comes
to audio, these companies make decent sounding source equipment like cd
players and cassette decks. Companies like Sansui, Onkyo and pioneer used to
make some decent integrated amps also. But the good models were very few and
they don't make them like that any more. These are mass market companies
driven by mass market economies and most of their amps and speakers are real
JUNK. I would say speakers made by Lithos, Acoustic portrait, Pulz are far
better than any of them. I own acoustic portrait speakers and I have
listened to most speaker-specialist "branded" stuff available in Bangalore
and I would say the competition starts only at around the 1 Lakh price
point. This is because of the high quality design, drivers and electronics
used in them. The drivers (typically used in branded speakers costing more
than a lakh) are personally matched by the designer and very low
tolerance/high quality electronics are used. I went and had a look when my
speakers were being made and I was pleasantly surprised by the size and
specification of the transformer in the crossover circuit. There are people
who do a good job in India. It is true you get better quality if you import
from specialist brands. But at what cost ?[/quote]
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Hi Square Wave,
I haven't really heard Lithos or Pulz or Acoustic Portrait, so I cannot
comment specifically on them. However, if you are happy with their
performance, once again, good for you! I have heard some others and don't
think I would like to own a single one, especially when there are so many
mouth watering products to be had hailed the world across.

The mass market products you mention could be the low budget ones. Have you
heard any of the Yamaha/Pioneer/Sony models made for the British market?
Hear them and you might consider changing your views. But sure,
Yamaha/Denon/Sony etc make mass market products, and what is wrong with
that? They also make very high tech products, and by no stretch of
imagination could one call a RXV 2500 or a Denon 3805 or Sony STR junk! But
I can't see any of the Indian manufacturers you quote coming out with a
competitor to the DSP Z9, or the Denon 5805 in such a hurry! If economies of
scale allow the foreign manufacturers to offer a lot of technology at rock
bottom prices, well, more power to them.

Also I don't know what "specialist branded" stuff you have heard upto Rs 1.0
Lakhs that put you off so much. The Dyn Audience 42s, PSB Images, Infinity
Primus\', Quads, etc, etc, are very high quality speakers available for much
less.

On your assertion that R&D does not improve quality, well, if that is your
view, you are welcome to it. HM and Premier hardly had any R&D so to speak
of, whereas their foreign counterparts like Toyota, Honda, GM, Ford, Suzuki,
etc, etc, firmly went the R&D way. Which car would you prefer to own now -
an Ambassador or a Premier, or one of the latter?
Cheers
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square_wave
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Arj wrote:
Well, the question of Branded Vs Unbranded exists in ALL goods not just
Audio and the logic is just the same.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

for me anything which is not expensive (Eg sub 3000) i might go for
unbranded. But anything above that, i do not mind sepnding more for Branded
primarily due to security and resale value;

With unbranded or grey market, even a 10 year guarantee is actually
valueless as it is purely on word of trust.
anything fortunate or unfortunate happens to the person ( getting a job
abroad, higher studies, financial ruin etc etc ) and all that guarantees are
void.

Another point is resale value. the resale value of unbranded crashes to
about 30% or even less the moment you have bought it and taken it home. A
branded would always have a value associated to it and something you can
research and compare at so many sites. Infact a cheaper second hand branded
component might give you a better resale value !

Neutral, you made a very valid point of Budget. in the end what you look for
is the Best sound within your budget. Nothing wrong with that. it is just
that you explore all options and then make an informed decisions. there are
no right or wrong decisions in this. there are only decisions which match or
do not match requirements.

There is nothing Wrong about Bumps and tizzs in recording..no rule which
says you should not like it. and everyone who owns a music system is under
no compulsion to be "what is perceived as being a audiophile". it goes
purely by what you like and what makes you feel good when listening to music
!

cheers
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Yeah.I agree. It is a matter of priorities ! My priority is musical
pleasure. I want a product which will give me the best for the amount I pay.
I could not find a branded product to satisfy me at my budget. There is no
point in owning a product which does not make you happy even though it has
lot of resale value. My Bose 401 comes to mind. I owned that speaker for
almost 3 years and what a waste of time! I actually sold it for a very
negligible loss. Does that make me happy ? NO ! If I had truckloads of money
to burn, I wouldn't mind buying a branded speaker which will satisfy me.
There is a reason why DIY is a big industry abroad.
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Neutral
Hi, Could you please tell me which speaker amp combos you have heard that
have fantastic dynamics. This would be helpful for those making fresh
purchases.
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roshan

Guys,

Being a manufacturing professional, I cannot but jump in to this discussion.

Manufactuirng today has changed a lot, from yesteryears, where companies
made everything they sold. Today very few "brands" own complete
manufacturing facilities, nor do they want to.In fact there is a famous and
expensive european luxury car model that is totally manufactured by someone
else. Take computers, cars, soaps, shampoos or even medicines....it\'s the
same story.

Let\'s move to electronics. The Toshiba TV you buy will have a Philip\'s
tuner, a samsung Tube, a hitachi motherboard.... and would be assembled by
Videocon in Ahmednagar. No kidding!!!

So what\'s the "brand" value, that you pay for?

Coming to audio products, a speaker manufacurer in all probability will not
make the drivers, crossovers or even the cabinet. Some never even touch
their own products, from manufacture to sale. So if someone else buys the
same sub-systems from the same sub-contractors, would it sound the same? To
a great extent.... yes.

Would you pay your neighbour Rs 60,000 for a cadence rip-off speakers, that
he assembles using the same components on his terrace? Probably, no.

The same analysis can be applied to amplifiers, cd players etc.. and you
would end up with the same set of questions.

If you made the same aggregate using the same sub-system or sub assemblies,
but without the logo, would you....

a) Be able to charge the same?
b) Incur the same cost to manufacture?
c) be as reliable?
d) satisfy the aspirations of consumers?
e) make your product look as good?

and perhaps the most "inconsequential" ....

e) SOUND THE SAME?????

...........................end of part I.......

Roshan.
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square_wave

Big ears,

Sure these guys makes some good AV recievers.When I mentioned audio, I was
keeping stereo in mind because this is a stereo forum. I am not aware of the
big boys in the AV business. Maybe some video/audio guy could chip in
here..)
In audio I was talking about the amplifier and speaker technology. As most
seasoned audiophiles know, there has not been much advancement in technology
in these two fields in the last twenty five years or so. This is not what
most manufacturers will tell you. They will add some chip in the processor
section of the AV receiver and proclaim it as the latest technology. But
this is not advancement in sound amplification or reproduction. It is
basically an add-on to basic amplification technology which already exists.
If you take the latest flagship reciever from Denon/ yamaha or marantz and
compare its amplifier section to a 15 year old flagship Bryston, MF,
Mc-intosh or krell, sugden etc..you will know the av reciever is junk. What
you get with a modern receiver is good AV sound processing and sound
management technologies which are basically add-ons. That is the reason why
you get the receiver for less than quarter of its price in the second hand
market within three years. That is the reason why smart AV guys buy just the
sound processor and then add power amps made by the big boys. It makes it
more flexible also.

I wanted floorstanders at around half a lakh. I know good bookshelf speakers
exist for this price. But then I have look out for a matching sub which will
take the total expense to a lakh. The only reasonably priced floorstander I
liked was the quad 22L at 75k. But frankly I liked the AP better at a much
lower price point. As I said earlier, good speaker technology exists for
more than a couple of decades. People have even been making clones of most
popular models of proac, AR etc.. for ages at quarter of the price. There
are instances where some seasoned audiophiles preferred the clone to the
original ones also. It is available for any hobbyist who has the drive and
inclination to make good speakers. From my observation, it is only at the
super high end audio, where you need continuous refinement of technology and
path breaking products every two years etc.For example, if you take B&W, it
is only the super high-end nautilus series which gets improved. And you are
not going to get those refinements unless you shell out a lot of money. Most
speakers costing below a couple of lakhs are all playing around with the
same old technology which has been available to anybody for a long time.
They will come out with a new series every two years with new color/material
for the woofer etc.. and proclaim that it is path breaking technology. The
truth is that they will sound similar to the older series. This is to fool
the gullible public who always wants the "LATEST" .There are a lot of cases
where the older series were better than the new ones. Case in point is the
older wharfedales, Infinity, Acoustic research etc.. The older wharfedales
sounds far better than the "LATEST KEVLAR" Chinese woofer clad versions !
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big-ears

Hi Square wave,

This is turning out into a interesting discussion!

But, you may be comparing apples and oranges here. Sure the amplification
section of a flagship AVR receiver cannot be compared to that of a Krell or
a Mcintosh. What is present in an AVR receiver is adequate for the job it is
supposed to do which is process and amplify HT material. It isn't required
to bother about soundstaging, or imaging or resolution. But there is also
another angle to this point. The AVRs we have mentioned are Japanese,
whereas the stereo amps are British / American / Canadian. Now which
seasoned audiophile would compare a Japanese amp to a Krell or a Bryston or
a MCIntosh?

There may not have been much of advancement in basic speaker/amplifier
technology per se, but I am sure there is an improvement in the products
available today, because of the improvement in materials and manufacturing
processes of various components like capacitors, resistors, transformers
etc. Technology and improved manufacturing processes today allow materials,
hitherto only the preserve of the exotic, to be used in more commonplace
systems. I wouldn't therefore quite agree with you when you say there has
been no improvement in the past 25 years. Improvement is certainly there,
only there hasn't been any radical change. But then it is like saying,
because cars 25 years back had 4 wheels and a steering wheel and ran on
roads, and they do so even today, there is hardly any advancement in
automobile technology. This is surely a little off the mark. Drive a car
which is 25 years old and then drive a modern one and the advancement will
soon be obvious. In amps, 200wpc has become commonplace today, 25 years ago
how many amps were there in the market delivering that kind of an output?
And the price of the ones which did? This is only on the stereo front, when
it comes to AV, there has been a sea change. 25 years ago there was no DD or
DTS, why, Prologic became available to the consumers only in the 90s.

On the smart AV guys buying processors and adding power amps, in addition to
being smart they would have to be real well heeled too. Surround processors
cost an arm and a leg. Try buying a Lexicon processor!

Speakers are a highly subjective issue. People may be making clones of
popular models for ages. I too would love to make a clone of the Evidence
Master for my listening room. But how would I ever be able to replicate the
infinite testing and the minute modifications/amendments that Dynaudio would
be carrying out their super high tech facility? Don't want to fool myself
going that way.

Kevlar, yes. Agree with you there. It is simply not the wonder material for
speaker cones that it was thought to be. Don't want to comment on B&W's
policy, but Dynaudio has been using the same basic material for its drivers
for a number of years. Yes, they might have made some changes in the voice
coils / magnets etc, in the name of advancement, however.

Bottom line is finding something that suits your ears at your budget, and
staying happy.

Cheers
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square_wave

Hi big ears,
I am not literally comparing the two. I am just trying to prove the point
that amplification technology in its cleanest form has been there for more
than a couple of decades. In fact you may find better amplification in a 15
year old krell than a new flagship AV receiver.
I agree with you that good sound has become affordable today because of
improved manufacturing process.
Evidence master is a super high end speaker. I have already posted that
there is continuous refinement of technology in super high end audio. Most
speakers that we seek do not belong there. I am just trying to prove the
point that technology to develop very good sounding speakers which are
affordable is very much available to people who have the drive and the right
connections to a research facility. Siva of acoustic portrait is one I know
personally. There may be others but I do not know them.

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Arj
created: Jun 01. 2005, 17:44

Wouldnt agree with you more .
The essence is not the manufacturing but the design. Almost every CDP no matter what price uses a Philips or a sony transport but each do sound different.

Most Brands like Mark Levison, Vincent, Rotel, Theil are all manufactured in China..but it is their design which sets them apart not the manufacturing. This is what I am talking about ie the Know how to voice a component.

Eg the harbeth. it is voiced and personally tested by the owner (In fact he used to use his own daughters voice to test it out..) Same for Reference 3a, JM Reynaud, Living Voice, Sugden etc etc.

My take is NOT on the technical side of things, but in the actual design to give a voice signature to the product.
Even Cadence is only manufactured in India . the design is done by an australian who actually started his plant in India due to the flagrant abuse of IPR in china (Cayin, Consonance, Shanling are all copies of western designs by OEM manufacturers)

APPLEs products are ALL manufactured and assembled in China/Taiwan. but the design is all american.
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roshan wrote:
Guys,

Being a manufacturing professional, I cannot but jump in to this discussion.

Manufacturing today has changed a lot, from yesteryears, where companies made everything they sold. Today very few "brands" own complete manufacturing facilities, nor do they want to.In fact there is a famous and expensive european luxury car model that is totally manufactured by someone else. Take computers, cars, soaps, shampoos or even medicines....it\'s the same story.

Let\'s move to electronics. The Toshiba TV you buy will have a Philip\'s tuner, a samsung Tube, a hitachi motherboard.... and would be assembled by Videocon in Ahmednagar. No kidding!!!

So what\'s the "brand" value, that you pay for?

Coming to audio products, a speaker manufacurer in all probability will not make the drivers, crossovers or even the cabinet. Some never even touch their own products, from manufacture to sale. So if someone else buys the same sub-systems from the same sub-contractors, would it sound the same? To a great extent.... yes.

Would you pay your neighbour Rs 60,000 for a cadence rip-off speakers, that he assembles using the same components on his terrace? Probably, no.

The same analysis can be applied to amplifiers, cd players etc.. and you would end up with the same set of questions.

If you made the same aggregate using the same sub-system or sub assemblies, but without the logo, would you....

a) Be able to charge the same?
b) Incur the same cost to manufacture?
c) be as reliable?
d) satisfy the aspirations of consumers?
e) make your product look as good?

and perhaps the most "inconsequential" ....

e) SOUND THE SAME?????

...........................end of part I.......

Roshan.
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Hi Neutral,

Just trying to get an idea about your likes/dislikes.

Have you heard the NAD 320BEE, and if yes, how was it different from the Lithos? Also, the Lithos is available for about 10K, isn't it?

Cheers

PS, amendment

I am sorry, I confused Pulz with Lithos! Swamped with work#!*#!*.

Lithos makes speakers and Pulz makes amps, I think.

Anyway, point is the NAD 320BEE is a very well regarded amp universally, and on the shortlist of any budget conscious amp seeker. Have you heard it and how would you rate it vis-a-vis a Rs 10K Pulz?

Cheers